Episode description:
NASA’s James Webb House Telescope is tough at work answering our greatest questions concerning the start of our universe and faraway galaxies. However some astronomers are pointing its highly effective eyes a lot nearer to house. On this episode, Caltech astronomer Katherine de Kleer explains how Webb is rewriting our understanding of objects inside our photo voltaic system–from area rocks within the asteroid belt to the icy and volcanic moons of Jupiter and Saturn.
HOST JACOB PINTER: You’re listening to NASA’s Curious Universe. I’m your host, Jacob Pinter.
[Music: Eliza’s Daydream by Tim Harvest and Zach Rowan]
JACOB: NASA’s James Webb House Telescope is permitting us to look additional into the depths of area… and additional again in time… than ever earlier than.
[Webb broadcast archival: The largest, most powerful telescope ever sent away from our planet…]
JACOB: It’s serving to us reply massive questions on black holes, galaxies, even the start of our universe.
[Webb broadcast archival: We want to look back and see some of the first stars and galaxies born in the early universe. What we call cosmic dawn…]
JACOB: Now, that is all stuff that you simply positively can not see together with your bare eye.
However some scientists are pointing Webb in a distinct path… a little bit nearer to house, at objects inside our photo voltaic system.
Take into consideration Jupiter, which you positively can see from right here on Earth with a daily store-bought telescope. And even together with your bare eye generally.
So, to listen to what scientists are studying from Webb, I referred to as up Katherine de Kleer. She’s an astronomer at Caltech … who focuses on our photo voltaic system.
When she was a scholar, Katherine wasn’t bought on learning planets straight away. Like every good budding astronomer, she was extra into galaxies and stars at first. Till she had the prospect to make use of the Keck observatory in Hawaii to take a look at our photo voltaic system’s gasoline giants.
KATHERINE DE KLEER: And my PhD advisor mentioned, why don’t we simply rapidly look over at Io, Jupiter’s moon and simply type of see what it’s as much as? And so, we pointed the telescope at Io, and we took this picture, and the picture that got here up on the display screen was an image of this moon with all these little vivid spots on it.
[SFX: Rumbling volcanos, bubbling lava]
KATHERINE: And all these vivid spots are warmth coming off of particular person volcanoes on Io, and from night time to nighttime, I realized you could possibly see how a lot warmth is coming off of which volcanoes and the way that’s altering over time, and you’ll observe its eruptions. And I didn’t notice till that second that you could possibly ask the identical types of questions that you’d ask about Earth, about different objects within the photo voltaic system, that you could possibly study their atmospheric dynamics, you could possibly examine their volcanism. And after I realized that that was doable with telescopes, I used to be bought.
JACOB: When Webb launched, Katherine was tremendous excited. It took scientists many years to design, construct and launch the telescope. This type of factor doesn’t occur fairly often. At any time when a brand new NASA flagship telescope launches, it’s an enormous deal for astronomers.
KATHERINE: It’s your alternative to make some massive advance, not just a few little incremental enchancment on our understanding, however take an actual step ahead by way of what we all know concerning the photo voltaic system or the universe. And so, I feel astronomers are all the time type of fascinated by what’s going to be the large advance in my area that’s gonna come out of this telescope.
JACOB: Now, there are loads of telescopes proper right here on Earth, in observatories all over the world. And also you is perhaps questioning, what makes Webb so particular? Why do you want a elaborate area telescope to take a look at stuff that’s fairly near us, comparatively talking? Katherine says it’s a good query.
KATHERINE: For a lot of astrophysics, a part of what provides the James Webb House Telescope its edge is that it could actually have a look at actually, actually, actually faint issues.
JACOB: That’s as a result of Webb can see past seen mild… into the infrared finish of the spectrum. That lets it spot dimmer, extra distant objects than most telescopes can.
KATHERINE: However photo voltaic system objects are typically extraordinarily vivid. You understand, you’ll be able to lookup within the sky and see loads of them at night time, if you realize the place to look.
JACOB: And on prime of that … the James Webb area telescope … as you could have guessed from the identify … is… in area!
KATHERINE: So, one of many greatest benefits we get for vivid photo voltaic system objects from James Webb is that it permits us to look at with out the Earth’s environment in the way in which.
JACOB: Trying up by way of Earth’s environment muddies the view for ground-based telescopes. You simply can’t see all the main points Katherine must with out going up into area. For instance, Katherine is searching for indicators of water on asteroids and moons…
[Music: Quick Calculations by Tim Harvest and Zach Rowan]
KATHERINE: That exact area of the spectrum occurs to be blocked by, unsurprisingly, water in Earth’s environment, in addition to some carbon dioxide, however with James Webb, we don’t have that in the way in which, and so we will get entry to this info that we couldn’t see earlier than.
JACOB: However there’s a catch for photo voltaic system astronomers like Katherine… area telescopes are designed at the beginning to look deep into area… at these faint objects she talked about.
KATHERINE: It’s a pretty common phenomenon with new telescopes that they’re mainly by no means designed primarily with photo voltaic system objects in thoughts. And really, James Webb did higher than most observatories by way of incorporating Photo voltaic System scientists from the start to verify these very uncommon issues that we’d like have been taken under consideration.
JACOB: So, let’s speak concerning the uncommon issues…
For one, close-up objects, like planets seem to maneuver a lot quicker relative to Webb’s place in area than faraway galaxies.
You may get a style of this in a automotive driving down the freeway. Once you’re going quick and also you look out towards the horizon, it’s straightforward to maintain observe of 1 tree that’s method on the market. However in the event you shift your imaginative and prescient and look in conjunction with the street, it appears like every little thing is simply whipping by.
So, to get have a look at every little thing whipping by, Webb has to actually rev up its monitoring pace. And that’s not the one difficulty. Some close by objects are simply too vivid for Webb to take a look at. In some modes, the telescope’s detector will get fully blinded by the sunshine.
To work out the bugs, Katherine received the chance to check the telescope earlier than virtually anyone else, to verify it was prepared for primetime for photo voltaic system astronomers. So, she geared toward Jupiter.
And it was type of a full-circle second for her…
KATHERINE: The a part of it that I used to be type of in control of was, actually, the observations of Io, the volcanic moon I discussed.
JACOB: And what did you see, and what did it really feel like to make use of this new toy for the primary time?
KATHERINE: Yeah, I used to be thrilled. So once they begin doing the scheduling, you realize, first they’ve these totally different home windows when it is perhaps scheduled, they usually’ll inform you it may very well be on August 12, or possibly it’ll be on August 14, or possibly it’ll be on August 16, and also you’re type of ready there, after which it will get really scheduled. And, you realize, I had it on my calendar, and I, you realize, I feel I used to be at a celebration, and I used to be telling folks James Webb is observing Io for me proper this second.
JACOB: Have been they impressed?
KATHERINE: Oh yeah, completely.
JACOB: And what did you see?
KATHERINE: So for photo voltaic system objects, as a result of we’ve additionally despatched spacecraft to a few of them, it gained’t be the primary time we’ve noticed that object from above Earth’s environment, at the very least for the foremost planets and moons, however James Webb has entry to sure wavelengths the place spacecraft devices have by no means lined. So particularly for the case of Io and the Jupiter system, this sort of quick finish of the mid-infrared vary was not lined by any of the missions that had passed by or to the Jupiter system. And so, we received this sort of little lacking piece of the spectrum of Io’s floor and noticed these massive absorption options from the sulfur dioxide frost that coats Io’s floor. And we knew that the sulfur dioxide was there, however we hadn’t seen these explicit massive options earlier than, and they’re doubtlessly giving us info on the feel of the floor frost, in addition to possibly even will inform us whether or not there’s a skinny frost layer overlying a lava move, for instance, in comparison with only a thick frost layer that goes down for meters.
JACOB: Since then, Katherine has used Webb to discover all around the photo voltaic system. So, I had tons of questions for her, however I began by asking her for a tour of our photo voltaic system by way of Webb’s eyes, beginning with asteroids.
[Music: Curious Universe stinger]
KATHERINE: So, to begin with, the asteroids are, we consider them as these leftover objects from the interval of planet formation. And I feel on many fronts, James Webb is answering questions concerning the time of formation, proper, the earliest universe. Additionally the early phases of forming photo voltaic programs round different stars.
[Music: New Patterns by Tim Harvest and Zach Rowan]
KATHERINE: It could actually additionally inform us concerning the early phases of our personal photo voltaic system, regardless that that occurred, you realize, 4 and a half billion years in the past, as a result of we will examine the remnants from that interval. So, we discover these remnants all throughout the photo voltaic system. The icy outer Photo voltaic System ones are referred to as the Kuiper Belt objects, however the inside rocky ones are the asteroids, and the vast majority of the asteroids reside in the principle asteroid belt, which is between Mars and Jupiter, and it’s this assortment of rocky objects which can be mainly materials that condensed out of the disk that the planets fashioned out of, and have survived considerably intact, I gained’t say totally intact, as a result of most of them are literally fragments, however they haven’t advanced, you realize, to kind atmospheres and oceans and all these items that might have completely erased the type of preliminary circumstances, proper? So, they’re type of chemically intact, let’s say.
[SFX: Asteroids whooshing through space, colliding]
KATHERINE: The photo voltaic system objects fashioned in a single explicit distance from the Solar, one explicit place or orbit, after which the photo voltaic system went by way of this loopy dynamical time the place the planets have been all shifting from the orbits they began at to the orbits they’re at at the moment. And through that course of, all these little objects that condensed out of our protoplanetary disk, we name them planetesimals, they received thrown round far and wide. And now most of the ones from the icy outer reaches of the photo voltaic system received thrown inwards, for instance, and now we discover them within the asteroid belt and in another locations. They usually can inform us about what sort of chemistry was occurring because the planets have been forming. They’ll inform us concerning the constructing blocks of Earth and different planets. They usually can even inform us about this means of the planets shifting and throwing all these little issues round. We are able to type of get perception into how that course of befell, primarily based on the place all these little objects are at the moment in comparison with the place they fashioned.
JACOB: You have been speaking earlier about how the James Webb House Telescope is type of uniquely positioned to inform us what objects within the photo voltaic system are made from. So, whenever you level James Webb at an asteroid, you realize, what are there like particulars within the make-up of those asteroids that you simply’re seeing which can be new particulars, or that you simply’re seeing otherwise than you’ve gotten earlier than?
KATHERINE: Yeah, so within the mid infrared particularly, we get info on the minerals that make up the surfaces of those asteroids, and that’s info that we haven’t had at this degree of element. So, for instance, most of those asteroids are literally made up of minerals which can be broadly termed silicates. So, that is materials like a lava move or like Earth’s mantle. It’s dominated by a mineral referred to as olivine, which, as a gemstone, is named peridot, and likewise makes up Earth’s mantle. In order that’s type of the dominant mineral that we see, but it surely is available in all these totally different types, and James Webb really lets us inform which kind we’re seeing which might inform you how near the Solar this mineral originated from.
JACOB: Wow. It’s fascinating to consider this mineral that’s so frequent on Earth, you realize, within the mantle, under the floor, after which seeing it on these little rocks floating out in the remainder of the photo voltaic system too, proper?
KATHERINE: Yeah, it’s superb how type of common sure varieties of chemistry are.
JACOB: And type of by an identical token, scientists are utilizing James Webb to check protoplanetary disks that ultimately develop into mainly photo voltaic programs like ours, proper? And in some instances, are discovering comparable, comparable supplies there that you simply discover left over from the formation of the photo voltaic system?
KATHERINE: That’s precisely proper. And I feel that due to what James Webb and different telescopes are telling us about protoplanetary disks in addition to our photo voltaic system, that this sort of scientific space of understanding how planets kind is likely one of the most enjoyable and fast-moving areas proper now. And so, you talked about James Webb is taking a look at these protoplanetary disks. They’re additionally wanting on the warmth coming off of these disks, identical to we’re wanting on the warmth coming off of asteroids. And they’re searching for the very same signatures that we’re searching for on asteroids. So, you’ve gotten these discs which can be mainly, it’s the identical materials because the asteroids simply 4 plus billion years in the past. And also you’re wanting on the mineral olivine in most of these as effectively, and also you’re taking a look at the very same signatures. And so, I feel it’s fairly cool that you could mainly do the identical science on a 100-kilometer object within the asteroid belt as you’re doing on a whole forming photo voltaic system.
[Music: Positive Arc by Tim Harvest and Zach Rowan]
JACOB: As we tour the photo voltaic system, let’s check out Jupiter’s 4 closest moons, that are referred to as the Galilean moons. I feel that lots of people give them quick shrift as a result of they’re moons and never planets, however there’s only a lot occurring. Yu know, there’s volcanoes and thick sheets of ice and in some instances, liquid water deep beneath the floor. So, what do you need to learn about these moons of Jupiter? And what are you discovering out?
KATHERINE: You’re completely proper that the moons are simply these fascinating worlds in their very own proper. And I feel that actually the photo voltaic system science neighborhood has totally come round to that concept. You understand, in the event you look again on the spacecraft missions, that the type of earlier generations of spacecraft missions, they have been largely focusing on the planets. However now the following technology of missions may be very particularly focusing on the moons. We now have Europa Clipper going to Europa.
[Europa Clipper broadcast archival: And liftoff, liftoff of Falcon Heavy with Europa Clipper, unveiling the mysteries of an enormous ocean lurking beneath the icy crust of Jupiter’s moon, Europa…]
KATHERINE: Europe has the JUICE mission that’s going to the Galilean moons. And this sort of displays this recognition that the moons are simply these fascinating worlds in their very own proper, and in some ways, are extra Earth-like than the planets, actually extra so than the enormous planets. We need to perceive, you realize, how they fashioned, what they’re made from. A central query that persons are concerned with is whether or not they’re liveable. So, the outer three of the Galilean moons, Europa, Ganymede and Callisto are all thought to have oceans beneath thick ice shells, and people oceans are maybe thought to have the circumstances that’s wanted for all times.
JACOB: If we’re sending probes there, particularly, I suppose what’s Webb’s function in working with these probes? Like, what can Webb do this these spacecraft gained’t be capable to do? Or, how can Webb type of fill within the gaps in what they’re seeing?
KATHERINE: Yeah, that’s an amazing query, and it’s type of a central query in photo voltaic system astronomy. One is that merely figuring out that one thing is there effectively upfront of the spacecraft’s arrival helps the spacecraft workforce higher design their experiments once they get there. So it’s very helpful to know, for instance, that these objects have atmospheres, and what these atmospheres are made from, as a result of then the mission, you realize, has the entire time that the spacecraft is flying on the market to consider how they’re going to capitalize on that info to study extra. The opposite angle of that is that these objects are always altering. That is very true for one thing like Io that has lively volcanoes. However we additionally see this within the gasoline that’s surrounding moons like Europa, Ganymede and Callisto. In order that the gasoline is type of patchy, and it appears prefer it’s type of in a distinct place each time you see it. And spacecraft can solely seize photos at a type of at very set occasions, and solely during the mission. And infrequently, you realize, the spacecraft is simply there throughout one season, for instance, for the item, and so that you want observations from Webb and different telescopes to actually perceive the context of what you’re seeing and whether or not it displays the moon’s conduct on a regular basis, or whether or not it’s only a perform of this explicit season.
JACOB: That is going to sound a little bit corny, possibly, however, you realize, I couldn’t assist considering that the Galilean moons are named that as a result of they have been described by Galileo a whole bunch of years in the past, and they also’re like the unique factor that we checked out by way of a telescope, proper?
KATHERINE: Yeah.
JACOB: And now whenever you examine them with one thing just like the James Webb area telescope that’s, you realize, type of in the identical lineage, however, however a lot extra highly effective, I don’t know. Do you ever type of suppose again on like that, that legacy of the numerous, many telescopes which have checked out these moons earlier than, and the way you’re type of constructing on every little thing that we’ve realized alongside the way in which?
KATHERINE: Yeah, completely, I might say that’s actually one thing that I take into consideration, that we’ve been taking a look at these objects for, for 400 years now, and it’s simply superb to check, you realize, what Galileo realized about these moons in comparison with what we will see with telescopes at the moment.
[Music: Secret Formula by Tim Harvest and Zach Rowan]
KATHERINE: So, along with the moons of Jupiter, James Webb has made some fairly thrilling observations on the moons of Saturn, and particularly Enceladus and Titan. And one of many issues that’s actually cool about Enceladus is that it has these jets of water and different issues popping out of its south pole. These have been found by the Cassini spacecraft, and the James Webb House Telescope checked out Enceladus and its plumes. And I extremely advocate that you simply lookup the picture as a result of it’s measuring particularly water vapor within the plumes, and you’ll see that the water vapor extends to only extends away from Enceladus to many, many occasions the dimensions of Enceladus itself.
[SFX: Whooshing geyser]
KATHERINE: Think about like if some supercharged model of Outdated Devoted on Earth, the place you could possibly measure the water out to, you realize, the space of many Earths out into area, proper? It’s like at that scale. And you realize, we knew from Cassini that that water was popping out, but it surely hadn’t been mapped out to these distances earlier than the James Webb observations.
JACOB: As we’re you realize, winding down our tour right here of the photo voltaic system, are there every other stops we must always make factors of curiosity for you, or issues that you simply’ve simply received your eye on?
KATHERINE: So, one of many issues that Webb is especially good at for the photo voltaic system is mapping the place we see water and carbon dioxide. So these are central, what we name risky compounds which can be, you realize, important for habitability, but additionally only for the evolution of a planet, and people are the issues that we actually can’t see from Earth, as a result of Earth has water and carbon dioxide in its environment and people are absorbing mild, you realize, on the wavelengths the place we’d be searching for it on different planets. So one of many massive issues that Webb has revealed is simply the distribution of water and carbon dioxide throughout the photo voltaic system, and it has, actually, found a carbon dioxide environment at Ganymede, and has been in a position to map the carbon dioxide environment at Callisto, which has been recognized from spacecraft however hasn’t been mapped earlier than, so we will really see how these atmospheres are distributed throughout the moons.
JACOB: I did an identical interview with an exoplanet scientist not way back. And like, anytime he finds carbon dioxide, you realize, on the market on an exoplanet someplace, he’s so excited. I suppose like, as you study extra concerning the photo voltaic system. Do you ever get with the exoplanet researchers and type of swap notes and say, like, “Hey, that is what I’m discovering. Possibly this will help you? Is there something on the market that you simply see that possibly will help me learning our photo voltaic system?
KATHERINE: Yeah, I feel that folks learning exoplanets look fairly a bit at Photo voltaic System planets to type of predict the kind of signatures that they need to see at exoplanets. You understand, in the event that they’re searching for a exo-Uranus or an exo-Neptune, what would that seem like? They usually look to the photo voltaic system for that. I feel conversely, you realize, we solely have our photo voltaic system. We solely have this particular set of planets and moons. It’s only one instance of the numerous ways in which issues will be {that a} photo voltaic system might have, might have advanced into, and we don’t actually have the context. You understand, for understanding, is our photo voltaic system distinctive or bizarre, or is it really simply regular? And the data that we get on exoplanets simply permits us to actually put into context our personal host planet and informs how we take into consideration the historical past of our photo voltaic system as effectively.
JACOB: By now, I feel lots of people have heard of the James Webb House Telescope. Numerous us have seen the beautiful footage that come out of it. However at a excessive degree, what would you like folks to know concerning the science that’s popping out of this telescope?
KATHERINE: Making an attempt to know what’s taking place in our universe, in our galaxy, or simply in our photo voltaic system, requires all these totally different items of data that we get with totally different telescopes, and particularly as a result of they see mild in any respect these totally different wavelengths, radio telescopes, telescopes that function at seen wavelengths and James Webb within the infrared, and that our image of a lot of the universe, together with our photo voltaic system, has been incomplete as a result of we haven’t had entry to those infrared wavelengths, and it’s type of like including yet one more perspective that simply provides us a extra full and true image of what the universe round us is doing.
JACOB: If, if we might, like, magically ship you to at least one place within the Photo voltaic System safely and non-painfully and all that. And you realize, you’d be capable to see it for your self and do some type of science your self there. The place would you need to go?
KATHERINE: Ah, that’s a straightforward query. I might go to Io. You possibly can’t do the identical type of examine on Io that I’m doing on the asteroids, as a result of Io is so vivid, it’s placing out all of this warmth from its volcanoes, and it’s saturating the James Webb detectors at precisely the wavelengths that you’d have to get the composition of its lava flows.
[Music: Yes You Could by Tim Harvest and Zach Rowan]
KATHERINE: So, I might like to go there and take some samples of a complete lot of various lava flows, as a result of we all know from Earth that lava flows have quite a lot of variability and composition, and that tells you concerning the native geology, and so forth. And you realize, I’d carry a geochemistry lab on the market with me and put it on Io’s floor and hope it doesn’t get lined in a lava move. After which I might examine what all these, all these supplies are made from.
JACOB: You simply carry a bag stuffed with lava again to a lab right here, I suppose.
KATHERINE: Yeah, I don’t know what’s extra possible, bringing a lab there or bringing floor samples again right here, however that’s, that’s the place I might go and go to. It’s simply such a enjoyable and thrilling place too.
JACOB: Effectively, Katherine, thanks a lot. This was quite a lot of enjoyable.
KATHERINE: Yeah, and thanks!
JACOB: Katherine de Kleer is an assistant professor of planetary science and astronomy at Caltech.
For those who favored this episode … you’ll love NASA’s documentary Cosmic Daybreak, all concerning the James Webb House Telescope.
You’ll go behind the scenes with individuals who made the telescope doable … together with John Mather. He’s the Nobel Prize-winning NASA scientist who first proposed the Webb telescope.
JOHN MATHER: I knew after I received into the mission that it was going to be thrilling. I mentioned, “That is the best factor that I’ve ever heard of. That is what I need to work on. And I don’t care how onerous it’s or how lengthy it’s going to take. I simply need to work on it and make it occur.”
JACOB: You possibly can study extra about John Mather … and expertise the untold tales of the engineers, scientists and even truck drivers who introduced the telescope to life … within the movie Cosmic Daybreak. Simply go to NASA.gov/cosmicdawn.
And yet one more factor … NASA is monitoring a comet referred to as 3I/ATLAS … which is an especially uncommon alternative to check an object that got here from exterior our photo voltaic system. Scientists are utilizing Webb to study extra about it. You could find extra info … and all the newest information from the James Webb House Telescope … at nasa.gov/webb.
[Theme music: Curiosity by SYSTEM Sounds]
JACOB: That is NASA’s Curious Universe. This episode was written and produced by Christian Elliott. Our government producer is Katie Konans. My co-host is Padi Boyd. Krystofer Kim designed our present artwork.
Our theme tune was composed by Matt Russo and Andrew Santaguida of SYSTEM Sounds. Particular due to the Tutorial Media Applied sciences workforce at Caltech.
As all the time, in the event you loved this episode of NASA’s Curious Universe, please tell us. Depart us a evaluate. Ship a hyperlink to a buddy. And keep in mind, you’ll be able to “observe” NASA’s Curious Universe in your favourite podcast app to get a notification every time we submit a brand new episode.
[NASA Audio stinger: 3, 2, 1… This is an official NASA podcast]
