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Transcript:
Brendan: Welcome to the Astrophiz Podcasts. My identify is Brendan O ‘Brien and we’d prefer to acknowledge Australia’s first astronomers, the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island individuals, the standard house owners and custodians of the land we’re on.
This episode is produced on Yorta Yorta and Pangarang Nation within the East and Whadjuk Nyoongar nation in Perth.
… and we’re additionally asking you to affect your native politicians with a message that we actually want to vary our vitality insurance policies and transfer to renewable vitality sources to mitigate the results of local weather change.
Every month, We love bringing you two fabulous episodes … on the primary of every month, our buddy, molecular pharmacologist, toxicologist, and beginner astronomer, Dr. Ian “AstroBlog” Musgrave, brings you his month-to-month SkyGuide with all of the important observational highlights for telescopers, astrophotographers and bare eye observers.
Then, later every month, we convey you an unique and in-depth interview with a famous astrophysicist, astronomer, particle physicist, radio telescope engineer, information scientist or house scientist.
And we uncover their science journey and uncommon insights into how they suppose, once they suppose greatest, and the way they conduct their superb analysis into precisely how our universe works.
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At the moment’s episode options Dylan Grigg, a superb PhD from Perth in Western Australia.
EDIT: Dylan has simply been awarded his PhD ! Congrats!!
Dylan has been doing superb work that impacts on the effectiveness of each radio telescope and array on the planet.
He has revealed the presence of unintended radio frequencies leaking from the tens of hundreds of low -earth orbit satellites above us. And these leaking frequencies have the potential to drown out the very faintest of frequencies that inform us what was occurring on the very daybreak of time.
Let’s zoom over to Perth.
Brendan: Howdy, Dylan.
Dylan: G’day, Brendan. How’s it going?
Brendan: Yeah, superb. Nice to be talking with you. Now, at the moment, listeners, we’re actually fortunate to be talking with Dylan Grieg, who’s a high-performance computing specialist who has been doing groundbreaking work with the prototype of the world’s latest, largest and costliest radio telescope ever constructed … the SKA … the Sq. Kilometer Array. His work is shaping the way in which the world’s astrophysicists will use the massive quantities of information collected from the SKA to extract significant new understandings of the origins and evolution of our universe …
and thanks for talking with us at the moment, Dylan.
Dylan: Thanks a lot for having me on.
Brendan: It’s a pleasure, okay. Now, earlier than we speak about your present work at DUG and Curtin College in Perth, Western Australia, are you able to inform us the place you grew up, please, Dylan? And will you inform us the way you first got interested, or in your case, obsessed … with science and house?
Dylan: Yeah, certain. So, yeah, rising up all my entire life in Perth Western Australia … and I believe the primary time I acquired launched to house and all of the attention-grabbing issues up there was from my outdated man … I bear in mind studying some books about black holes after I was youthful, and I discovered it fairly attention-grabbing, simply purely from an curiosity perspective …
I assume I form of adopted that curiosity a bit by college, after which I acquired a bit extra fascinated about science, after which form of led to the place I’m at the moment, I assume.
Brendan:Incredible. So, after that profitable college profession, you have been awarded your Bachelor of Science diploma in Physics on the College of Western Australia, then your Masters.
Then you definitely moved over to Curtin College to finish your PhD in astronomy and astrophysics. Now, I consider you’ve already simply submitted your thesis and also you’re eagerly awaiting the response from the examiners. Is that appropriate?
Dylan: Yeah, so the examiners have gotten again now and made a few small adjustments and so I’m simply purely ready on the college to get again to me now.
Brendan: Wonderful. I’m actually trying ahead to calling you Dr. Dylan Grigg, however let’s maintain again on that till you’ve acquired the precise paper in your hand and the floppy hat.
So first up, congratulations on getting your thesis handed in. And look, we do perceive what an enormous endeavor problem and achievement that is.
Now, secondly, for our early profession researchers and younger astrophysicist listening, may you inform us the way you organized that transition from undergraduate to PhD pupil and why you made the choice to embark on such a difficult PhD journey at Curtin?
Dylan: Yeah, certain. So, yeah, thanks for that. So, yeah, I completed my undergrad in physics and conservation biology and I knew I wished to comply with by with one thing astronomy like. So I needed to speak to one of many lecturers who lectured me and he ended up … he wouldn’t wish to know this … however he ended up convincing me out of it ultimately.
So I managed to get a job as a geophysicist and nonetheless on the identical firm now eight years later. However throughout that point, I had a possibility to work with a number of the researchers at Curtin, a number of the astronomers, and I acquired provided a PhD place from one in every of them.
And so, yeah, I took it. So I really went straight from my undergrad, enrolled as a Grasp’s, after which modified it to a PhD ultimately.
So I managed to skip the entire Grasp’s a part of it.
Brendan:What a fantastic technique to supercharge your Masters and switch it right into a PhD. OK, now, we all know how essential it’s to have supportive supervisors and mentors.
Now, we did interview your sensible PhD supervisor, Professor Steven Tingay, method again in 2018.
Would you want to inform us about a few of these individuals who’ve impressed and supported you as a scientist and as a PhD researcher?
Dylan: Yeah, so Steven has been an enormous supply of help for me.
He was the one who provided me the PhD place, so with out him, I wouldn’t even be on this place now. Yeah, he’s actually pushed me to discover other ways of analysis and completely different methodologies, which I wouldn’t have executed earlier than. And actually, this PhD now has elevated my drive and keenness for science and doing analysis. And, yeah, I can’t consider doing anything now.
I additionally had a highschool physics trainer who form of was the rationale that I adopted by with physics for my undergrad at uni. So most likely these two individuals have had the most important influence on me science -wise.
Brendan: Thanks. All credit score to Steven Tingay and a science trainer. We love supporting science academics. Superior!
Now, the fourfold plan for at the moment is to have a short have a look at your PhD, discover out in regards to the frequencies which can be being transmitted by orbiting Comms and Web satellites, each deliberately and by chance, then have a look at your work on figuring out the unintended electromagnetic radiation that’s leaking from large constellations of satellites like StarLink, that are impacting on analysis since you’re utilizing extraordinarily delicate radio telescope arrays.
How does that sound as a plan, Dylan?
Dylan: Yeah, sounds good.
Brendan: Okay, so first up then, can we’ve a fast have a look at your PhD thesis to assist us perceive your private analysis trajectory for … I’d know a minimum of the final three or 4 years.
Your thesis title is: “Characterization of the prevalence of radio frequency emission from satellites at SKA low frequencies with SKA-Low prototype stations”.
Now, what large questions have been you asking and what issues did it’s a must to work by and overcome on your thesis?
Dylan: Yeah, certain. So for the low frequency half of the Sq. Kilometre Array that’s being constructed right here in Western Australia, it appears to be like over a really particular frequency vary and that frequency vary is 50 to 350 Megahertz. And inside that frequency vary, it wasn’t well-known which satellites particularly can be seen at these frequencies to know if they’d have an effect on information that was captured by the SKA when it will get up and working … and in addition by different radio telescopes around the globe that additionally have a look at these frequencies.
It was identified that a whole lot of them have been getting detected, however a extra systematic research of it wanted to be executed.
In order that was form of the drive for my PhD analysis. And so in that point, within the final three years, the literature’s come fairly a good distance. And I assume the most important outcome from my PhD analysis was I captured a whole lot of information with this telescope that I’ve used referred to as the Engineering Improvement Array 2.
And so I took 76 million photographs of the sky. Every of those photographs was two seconds of what the sky regarded like in that two seconds. After which I just about simply searched by all of these photographs for satellites. I needed to construct up all my very own algorithms to try this.
And the results of that was that we discovered, properly … a lot of satellites. The vast majority of them have been StarLink satellites and so I used to be capable of report the variety of satellites and the frequency each the precise frequency and the way typically in time they have been detected are for every of these frequencies so to present astronomers an concept of whether or not or not they’re more likely to see satellites in the event that they’re reporting information at these frequencies.
And a few of these are protected frequencies for radio astronomy. And we nonetheless detected a few of these satellites in these protected frequency bands. And so publish -PHD now, I’ve been engaged on attempting to translate my analysis so it may be used for regulation sooner or later.
Brendan: Yep, and that’s a really lengthy highway, and we might get to speak about {that a} bit later. So
that brings us updated together with your thesis. Now, did you and your loved ones have a good time while you handed it in?
Dylan: Not but. I’m ready to listen to again from the uni first, after which I’ll let loose my sigh of reduction.
Brendan: Oh, such disciplined, Dylan. Okay, thanks.
Subsequent, are you able to inform us slightly bit extra in regards to the frequencies which can be being transmitted by these orbiting comms and web satellites, each deliberately and by chance …
You talked about protected wavelengths?
We perceive that the aim of those satellite tv for pc constellations is to transmit alerts to Earth, and these transmissions are designated downlink frequencies and so they’re coated by, as you talked about, worldwide treaties.
Now, is it true that these intentional frequencies don’t actually pose an enormous drawback for extremely -sensitive radio telescope arrays that you simply’re developing the SKA low? Is that appropriate? And for our propeller heads, what precise frequencies are we speaking about right here?
Dylan: Yeah, certain. So ideally from an astronomer’s perspective, you’d have as a lot of the spectrum, whether or not that’s seen, radio, ultraviolet, no matter, as a lot of that as attainable, with none terrestrial transmission in between in order that you may look throughout that entire electromagnetic spectrum.
However in fact, astronomers must coexist with non-public business. So for all of the radio communications on Earth or in house. So yeah, we’ve to coexist collectively. And in order that signifies that there’s elements of the radio spectrum that are allotted for personal business.
Like within the frequency vary for the SKA-Low, there’s bands, such as you talked about, that are for satellites for intentional transmissions. And so the satellites are allowed to transmit at these frequencies. They usually’re so vivid which you could’t do any astronomy at these frequencies. That’s simply how it’s.
However there are particular frequency allocations for radio astronomy. It’s fairly small. I believe it’s 6 % of the vary of frequencies that the SKA appears to be like over are protected, however we additionally try to do observations within the frequencies that aren’t protected as properly.
So anyway, yeah, so we detected a whole lot of satellites transmitting on the designated downlink frequencies like we’d anticipate … however we additionally discovered a brand new sort of emission from satellites … the place there’s some emission coming from the satellites however it’s not deliberately transmitted so it’s someplace on board the electronics which we’re fairly undecided what half that’s for the time being and it’s equivalently as vivid because the brightest radio sources within the sky, astrophysical sources of radio emission.
In order that they’re nonetheless vivid and so they have a really giant bandwidth, which signifies that they’re seen over virtually all of the frequency bands that we have a look at over this SKA-Low frequency vary. So what I used to be attempting to do was perceive what the frequency of them was and, yeah, how widespread this emission really is.
Brendan: Okay, look, to summarise up to now, you’ve acquired some superb outcomes. I believe it’d be truthful to say that these outcomes scared the bejesus out of a number of the individuals within the radio astronomy group. So that you found radio emissions leaking from satellites throughout a broad vary of frequencies. What has been the response to the publication of your analysis findings?
Dylan: Yeah, so we put out some first outcomes on it a few years in the past, after which the massive survey that I did within the PhD thesis acquired printed this yr.
Clearly, it’s a reason for concern since you don’t wish to be seeing these satellites while you’re in search of extraordinarily faint alerts from the early universe or from different astrophysical sources.
However in a method … we form of put this analysis out to hope that we may introduce mitigations by some means. So we improve consciousness of it at first by placing the paper out. And now we’re hoping to double down on that by speaking to the fitting individuals to introduce mitigations for it.
And there’s a number of other ways of doing that. You’ll be able to introduce regulatory measures or astronomers must introduce their very own, whether or not that may simply be lack of information in some instances or arising with intelligent algorithms to have the ability to filter it out of the information.
Brendan: Okay. Whereas we’re speaking about mitigation then, this drawback has a possible to influence on each radio telescope we’ve, but in addition, as you talked about, it’s all about discovering options.
Now, you’ve already solved the issue of electromagnetic radiation leaking out out of your labs and workshops out within the area, out on the Murchison web site by placing these labs inside large double Faraday cages. So that you’ve additionally utilized filters to take away some rogue and predictable frequencies that may corrupt your information stream.
Might we simply use metallic paint to color a Faraday grid on the partitions of every satellite tv for pc earlier than? LOL, most likely not. Silly concept. Look, there’s no silver bullet ever is there?
So is SpaceX working to establish the onboard parts which can be, I’m assuming they’re conscious of this drawback, are they working to establish the parts which can be really leaking the electromagnetic radiation?
And what do you at present take into consideration the attainable options for this mitigation drawback that we’ve?
Dylan: Yeah, certain. So attention-grabbing concept. Like for optical astronomy, so yeah, the wavelengths that our eyes see, SpaceX even have painted their satellites with a distinct form of paint that was purported to lower how vivid they have been from the air. One thing like a Faraday cage across the satellites would imply that they’re not capable of talk with the air. However going heading in the right direction, it makes it arduous once we don’t know precisely what a part of the satellites this emission isn’t coming from.
And specifically, I’ll simply say the overwhelming majority of the satellites that we detected with this leaking electromagnetic radiation have been StarLink satellites. Now we have talked to SpaceX about it, in order that they know the issues there for us astronomers.
However on the finish of the day, they’re a non-public firm and what goes on inside their firm, the general public or different researchers aren’t at all times aware about. So I’m undecided in the event that they know precisely what parts coming from but or how a lot they’re engaged on it. However we simply hope that every time we come out with new outcomes or different individuals around the globe come out with new outcomes that it will get shared to them.
They usually’ve made good mitigations for optical astronomy previously. So we hope that one thing related could be executed for the radio a part of the spectrum sooner or later as properly.
Brendan: Stunning. Thanks, Dylan. Optimism and nice science do go hand in hand.
Now, as we’ve simply seen, we all know that science doesn’t at all times sail easily, and we’re actually joyful now to place our propeller heads again on once more for a short while. Would you prefer to share with us some particulars of a selected a part of your analysis that you simply’re engaged on proper now that’s driving you loopy or is astonishingly thrilling? Properly, maybe it’s even each?
What’s occurring, Dylan?
Dylan: Yeah, properly, I assume like I discussed, the pure development of this work goes from the information science of capturing the information, analyzing it, getting the alerts out, after which getting quantitative outcomes out, after which presenting that within the papers like we’ve, that are most accessible to astronomers and now the yeah the development on from that can also be making it that it’s translatable for the regulation individuals … which work for instance with completely different items and towards completely different requirements and in order that’s slightly bit completely different to the PhD work
…it’s going extra into yeah understanding very advanced regulatory frameworks.
And so, yeah, we’ve been in touch with some people who find themselves serving to us with that. So hopefully we’re capable of, yeah, translate our previous outcomes and different individuals’s previous outcomes into one thing which might be enforced as regulation sooner or later, as a result of the unintended electromagnetic radiation really falls in a little bit of a gray zone for the time being, exterior of regulation.
So, like, for instance, SpaceX is doing nothing incorrect with their satellites for the time being. However what we’re hoping is that regulation can get launched in order that the unintended electromagnetic radiation could be regulated sooner or later in order that it’s much less of an influence for astronomy, particularly over these protected frequencies as properly.
Brendan: Cool. Fingers crossed, Dylan, close to your work at DUG or on the SKA, you’re deeply immersed in information wrangling a number of the most advanced and puzzling phenomena in our universe. Now, how do you do your greatest pondering?
What circumstances do you normally have to swim clearly by that sea of information and provide you with verifiable conclusions. What conditions and environment help your greatest pondering, Dylan?
Dylan: Sure, a superb query. I imply, there have been loads of occasions through the PhD, particularly within the final yr the place it acquired actually arduous. Like, I’d have an issue and I’m simply banging my head towards the desk for every week or weeks even and may’t appear to be making any progress. So it’s fairly arduous to push by when that does occur.
However I discover that it’s simpler mentioned than executed, however typically taking a step again and reassessing what I’m really attempting to get out of my work helped me lots.
I additionally discovered that my greatest pondering was executed away from my desk and away from the pc, like if I’d be out simply having a stroll or I don’t know within the bathe simply mulling issues over typically that’s the place I did my greatest pondering … and yeah, more often than not these breakthroughs that I had with my analysis or pushing by these arduous elements weren’t on the desk … so yeah, that was a beneficial ability that I learnt throughout my analysis.
Brendan: Wonderful! Thanks Dylan … Now, I’ve had a have a look at a few of your ArXiv papers on the ArXiv server, and I seen you wrote plenty of them when the influence of the COVID pandemic was nonetheless evident again in 2022.
How did COVID have an effect on you and your loved ones, and what was the influence in your research and your astrophysics analysis? Have been there any classes learnt?
Dylan: Yeah, good query. To be sincere, me personally, COVID didn’t actually have an effect on my analysis output that a lot. We had a whole lot of lockdowns right here in Perth, properly, as a whole lot of locations in Australia did.
However yeah, from the analysis perspective, I used to be nonetheless capable of collaborate with individuals on-line after I wanted to. So, Yeah, by way of analysis, didn’t actually have an effect on me an excessive amount of. And I do know it was very completely different for lots of different individuals. So I assume I used to be fairly fortunate with that.
However I assume it actually made everybody comfy with with the ability to talk on-line over Zoom calls or over emails extra ceaselessly. And I believe it’s additionally given individuals a superb stability with with the ability to earn a living from home sooner or later as properly.
Brendan: Yeah, cool. Okay. Are you able to inform us about a number of the issues exterior your DUG work and your PhD -type analysis that often brings you nice pleasure?
Dylan: Properly, I can say for certain that the factor that saved me sane by all of the analysis was exercising often. I do a whole lot of working and I play footy as properly. And undoubtedly that saved me sane and gave me an output typically for after I acquired actually pissed off with uni and couldn’t make any progress or something.
And, you understand, I’d have the ability to come again on the finish of the day after performing some train with a recent thoughts. And a whole lot of occasions that actually helped me.
Brendan: Wonderful. Incredible. Thanks. Now, you’ve executed displays of your work, each domestically and internationally, I noticed earlier within the yr you’re over in Europe giving a presentation. I’ve listened to a few your radio interviews that you simply’ve executed lately. Is outreach an essential a part of being an astrophysicist?
Dylan: Yeah, most undoubtedly, and it’s undoubtedly one thing that’s fairly new to me.
The talking on the nationwide conferences was fairly daunting as any person newer to the sector. So loads of follow was required for certain for that.
However I’ve undoubtedly improved my expertise over the course of the PhD. However yeah, with the ability to talk very technical outcome to each technical individuals and a layperson viewers could be fairly troublesome and it’s one thing that I’m attempting to get higher at. But it surely’s crucial that the researchers do talk their scientific output as a result of they know the work higher than anybody else. And so them with the ability to talk it successfully is essential in order that future researchers can perceive the implications. And so additionally most of the people can perceive them if it has extra of an impact on on a regular basis life, which for astronomy not typically does … It doesn’t typically.
Brendan: Precisely. Thanks. Okay, properly, now the microphone is all yours, and also you’ve acquired the chance to present us your favorite rant or rave about one of many challenges that we face in science in fairness or representations of range in science denialism, that’s my favorite bugbear, or science profession paths, or your individual ardour for analysis that you simply talked about earlier, or simply our human quest for brand spanking new data. The microphone is all yours, Dylan.
Dylan: Thanks. Yeah, I’m undoubtedly very grateful that we’ve a really welcoming setting at Curtin College for anybody who wished to check astronomy. Particularly in comparison with another elements on the earth, I really feel very grateful to have executed it in Australia.
And I assume from the scientific aspect, I didn’t actually respect the breadth of radio astronomy earlier than I began doing the PhD and it’s actually attention-grabbing as a result of radio waves don’t get absorbed by the universe as a lot as different shorter wavelengths.
So it permits astronomers to probe proper into the early universe and I believe a number of the questions that radio astronomy is attempting to reply like how the universe regarded nearer to the Large Bang and different actually unique phenomena which we see in deep house is absolutely attention-grabbing … and yeah I hope that sooner or later I’m capable of keep related to radio astronomy and contribute to the sector as properly as a result of i simply discover it actually attention-grabbing.
Brendan: Wonderful and I additionally discover that the ARC Discovery Grants are popping out as we communicate. So we hope these younger radio astronomers in Australia being lucky with these grants. Thanks, Dylan. Now, is there anything that we must always be careful for within the close to future? What are you conserving your eyes on?
Dylan: Yeah, properly, undoubtedly conserving my eye on the SKA because it will get up and working, each the SKA-Low and the SKA-Mid. There ought to hopefully be some actually cool outcomes that come out of it, like one of many large science instances for the SKA is trying on the Epoch of Reionization … so taking a look at what the early universe appears to be like like.
And in addition the rapidly creating area of lengthy interval radio transients and Quick Radio Bursts can also be very attention-grabbing, so I’m eager to see the place that goes.
Brendan: Certainly! Look, I share that FRB problem too … realizing what’s occurring with them it’s a beautiful ongoing puzzle with a number of sizzling candidates however we nonetheless haven’t nailed it …
Properly thanks very a lot … virtually Dr … Dylan Grigg … On half of all of our listeners, and particularly from me, it’s been actually nice to be talking with you all the way in which over there on the western half of Australia and I’m trying ahead to … initially … listening to the results of your PhD. That can be an enormous celebration for you and your loved ones and it’s nice to know that you simply’re there teaming up with others to unravel a number of the most essential issues in radio astronomy.
Thanks particularly on your time in that unimaginable schedule that you simply’ve acquired and the pressures to analyse all that information and make sense of it. And good luck with all of your subsequent adventures and all of these future travels. I hope they’re all great.
And should your profession proceed to be out of this world! Thanks, Dylan!
Dylan: Thanks a lot, Brendan. It’s been nice speaking to you. Thanks for having me on.
Brendan: Bye.
Dylan: See ya.
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However we at all times suggest that you simply take a look at Dr. Ian Musgraves’ Astroblogger web site to seek out out what’s up within the evening sky.
Heads up. Astrophiz at all times takes a festive season vacation break over December and January. However earlier than we take this break, we’ll be bringing you a superb interview with an exquisite Irish photo voltaic physicist, Dr. Laura Hayes, coming very quickly. Keep tuned. Maintain trying up.
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