Moon Materials Flammability – NASA

From Earth orbit to the Moon and Mars, discover the world of human spaceflight with NASA every week on the official podcast of the Johnson House Heart in Houston, Texas. Take heed to in-depth conversations with the astronauts, scientists and engineers who make it attainable.

On episode 386, two NASA consultants focus on an experiment that may additional our understanding of flame conduct on the lunar floor to maintain astronauts secure. This episode was recorded Could 9, 2025.

Transcript

Gary Jordan

Houston, we have now a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson House Heart, episode 386, Moon Materials Flammability. I’m Gary Jordan, and I’ll be your host in the present day. On this podcast, we carry within the consultants, scientists, engineers and astronauts, all to let you understand what’s happening on the planet of human area flight and extra. NASA is paving the trail for returning human presence to the moon and ultimately to Mars. With that comes the necessity to perceive as a lot as attainable forward of time on what life will probably be like and how one can keep secure. You will have your extra obvious challenges to deal with, like a pressurized go well with for working in vacuum, touchdown on the floor and finalizing instruments, however among the seemingly smaller particulars can nonetheless current challenges. One in every of them is knowing flame conduct. Seems that gravity could have some influence on flame measurement, depth and unfold. Specifically lunar gravity seems to be this Goldilocks zone that will delay how lengthy it might take for a flame to self extinguish. Effectively, there simply so occurs to be an experiment that’s an fascinating mix of science with essential information that would translate to how one can hold lunar astronauts safer. Becoming a member of us to debate this subject is Emily Johnson, and Dr. Paul Ferkul, undertaking supervisor and principal investigator, respectively, for the flammability of supplies on the moon or FM squared experiment. With that, let’s ignite This dialog. Right here we go.

 

 

Gary Jordan

Emily and Paul, thanks a lot for approaching Houston, Now we have a podcast in the present day.

 

Paul Ferkul 

Nice to be right here.

 

Emily Johnson

Thanks. Thanks for having us

 

Gary Jordan 

All proper, FM squared is what we’re going to be speaking about, flames on the moon, and so much about fireplace this, this dialog goes to be fireplace. I’m sorry to kick off like that. However within the intro, I did a pun. I’ve to begin off with a pun. So that is, that is the how we’re gonna get kicked off, fires in area. Surprise how you bought into the fields that you just did. I like to begin our conversations with all of our company by studying somewhat bit about what received you to the place you’re. Emily, why don’t you begin somewhat little bit of biography that led you to change into the undertaking supervisor for this experiment?

 

Emily Johnson

Positive. Yeah, so you understand, NASA was not one thing that was ever actually on my radar rising up, and once I received into school, I used to be learning molecular and mobile biology, and I nonetheless didn’t actually know that NASA did my specific kind of science, however truly, it was when Kate Rubins had her first flight to the ISS that I noticed Kate Rubins, and she or he was, you understand, my specific kind of scientist. And I used to be like, wow, you understand, NASA, NASA needs folks like me too. So after that, I utilized for a few internships, and ultimately I received into the area life sciences coaching program based mostly out of NASA Ames. And man, it similar to actually modified my life, truthfully, like that was the place I fell in love with NASA, and it actually kicked off my profession. We’ve truly been capable of begin an identical program at NASA Glenn for bodily sciences. It’s modeled off of that authentic program from Ames, and it’s one thing we’re tremendous pleased with, and the goals of us are actually concerned in that too. In order that’s actually cool. And after that internship, I got here again to to Ohio, and I received a job and as a contractor for NASA Glenn did some some engineering work, and did some ISS operations. And the there was a civil servant program supervisor on the time who was only a actually unimaginable chief, and she or he, she actually impressed me to pursue management and administration. And in order that’s how I received into undertaking administration. And now I’m the undertaking supervisor for FM squared, and I get to assist sensible scientists like Paul, you understand, get their experiments going. And so yeah, right here the remainder is form of historical past,

 

Gary Jordan

yeah. And right here we’re speaking about this superior experiment. It’s nice to have you ever. Emily, all proper, Paul, inform us about about the way you set to work with fires in area.

 

Paul Ferkul

It was considerably of a special path than Emily, ranging from my school profession at Case, Western Reserve College in Cleveland, my school advisor, my undergraduate advisor, was Professor James Tian, and he truly was working with NASA. He was in this system, doing analysis in combustion. And once I got here time for me to graduate and search for a job, I ended in his workplace and, you understand, principally on the point of transfer on and get a job and profession. However he mentioned he had some work for me, as if I needed to do graduate research within the division. He had some work at NASA for me to do. In order that’s how I received my begin. And that was, I used to be very excited, as a result of I Actually just like the area program. I’m like, I’m like, you didn’t have the benefit of remembering the the primary man on the moon and stuff, however I, I used to be truly alive, so I received to see that. So it struck a core that NASA was nonetheless a really, very, an enormous, large deal for me at the moment. So I used to be lucky to get in this system. I instantly, truly, that is truly that is truly in 1985 so It’s been 40 years that I’ve been at NASA, and this is likely to be in the present day, might be the primary day I truly began 40 years in the past. I don’t know the precise calendar, nevertheless it was proper in regards to the summer season I used to be, I used to be a summer season pupil right now, you understand, simply after graduating undergrad. So it was proper about the identical time, however I began doing drop tower assessments at NASA Glenn Analysis Heart and combustion. So from the very starting, I used to be doing combustion assessments on the drop tower, after which it morphed. And naturally, I furthered my profession. I received my grasp’s diploma, then I ended up the identical deal. I used to be prepared to maneuver on. And he mentioned, Effectively, I’ve received, should you’re interested by staying on, I received a PhD subject so that you can work on, and we kind of made it work. And I used to be then doing modeling. So I principally, I modeled the check that I did earlier. So it was all, all of it match collectively, and all of it labored out. After which I received my doctoral diploma. After which this, once more, related, there was a possibility to work at NASA, which is form of a the way in which to get your foot within the door, begin from the performing some as a pupil researcher, form of transferring up the up the ladder. So then I received to do further experiments at NASA as a, basically an actual, full time worker, and that led into many, many combustion assessments, each in drop towers, plane assessments, the place we did zero gravity assessments and partial gravity assessments. We truly did lunar assessments and Martian G assessments within the 90s, as a result of that was nonetheless of curiosity. And truly considered one of my mentors at Glenn was Dr Kurt sextetter. He was form of the pioneer in that regard, and organising these partial gravity testing combustion. In order that was not, they’re speaking like, you understand, 30 years in the past now, we did that. So this has at all times been an curiosity. And, you understand, took some imaginative and prescient. He noticed the route that we’re transferring usually, NASA’s exploring transferring out to new worlds. So it’s going to occur. We’re gonna go to Worlds with totally different gravity. In order that’s finally the curiosity, after which the tie in. In order that’s form of how I received in a program, and I’ve been in a program now for 40 years. So

 

Gary Jordan

Wow yeah, very long time. Undoubtedly one thing you’re keen on, should you’re should you’re, should you caught with it, for certain. How did you make the migration from drop towers to combustion

 

Paul Ferkul

Effectively, truly, the drop towers, we burn assessments. We had a combustion chamber. So it was truly we dropped a chamber and we lit the samples through the drop. Through the drop, very small pattern. We solely had 5 seconds at NASA Glen, the drop, the zero gravity facility is 5.2 seconds, so as to do stuff, you may get zero g after all, once you go into free fall. However at 5.2 seconds, this must be, often a really small system in order that hold the time scales quick, so issues can occur rapidly sufficient to get make significant measurements or observations and a really quick time. So you’ll be able to’t burn a big piece of gas, however you’ll be able to, you are able to do small items of gas and really get quite a lot of info from that.

 

Gary Jordan

I feel that is this leads properly into speaking about fires in area too, as a result of with the very restricted alternatives on Earth, on the bottom, clearly there, or there could also be some, some must have extra time to gather knowledge and see how a hearth spreads and propagates. So the place can you discover extra time within the zero gravity atmosphere than simply the quick quantity of free fall that you just get on earth, no higher place than in area.

 

Paul Ferkul

Yeah, precisely. That’s the last word aim. And that’s why NASA has drop towers, as a result of we will then do 5 second assessments after which transfer on to plane, the place you’ve got parabolic flight trajectories for airplanes that fly. Was the KC 135 in Houston. That’s not right here anymore, however that we get roughly 25 seconds of zero G after which finally go to the area station, the place we have now limitless time. And that’s why we do all of the assessments on the bottom, that are, you understand, restricted in time, drastically restricted in time and form and measurement and all that. Nevertheless it does give us an enormous quantity of knowledge for creating these large flight experiments on an area station, that are very costly and complex. So we need to be sure that we nail that, and that’s why we do all these floor assessments. And finally, once we get to the area station, then we have now numerous time obtainable to us, proper?

 

Gary Jordan

Being in public affairs, quite a lot of what we search for is quite a lot of imagery in the case of attempting to share with the world. Why? , their science is so essential in area, and simply incredible and a really participating factor. And most of the time, it’s a few of these combustion experiments on the area station that come up about, you understand, igniting some pattern that that burns on this very vibrant ball after which slowly extinguishes over time and creates little blue balls. It’s, it’s very, very visually superb and a great way to inform a narrative, not less than from, from my facet of the of this microphone.

 

Paul Ferkul 

Effectively, we admire that. Yeah, we have now the fortune of being a really photogenic researcher. Some folks don’t. I imply, should you’re speaking about protein crystal development or one thing, it’s possibly harder. Proper to point out compelling pictures. Clearly, the analysis is compelling, however flames are usually. Folks can join with flames immediately, so it makes it simpler.

 

Gary Jordan 

Effectively why don’t we go into that subsequent and why don’t we discuss flames and what we all know and you understand, why is that this a really fascinating subject to discover, and why, once you take gravity away from the away from the equation, that flames change into fascinating.

 

Paul Ferkul 

Effectively, to begin from essentially the most fundamental what’s a flame and what makes a flame? We regularly speak in regards to the fireplace triangle, that are three legs of a chair or three factors of a triangle that you might want to get a flame to burn. On Earth, it’s principally you want gas, you want oxygen and wish an ignition supply. So when you’ve got these three parts, then you’ll be able to have, theoretically, you’ll be able to have a flame. So we all know on earth that occurs typically, on a regular basis. We don’t even take into consideration how typically it occurs on Earth. However after all, on for instance, choose a automobile, an area automobile, just like the ISS. So the Worldwide House Station is a orbiting laboratory, as everyone is aware of. It’s a really large laboratory, and it has an important half about that’s that it has a big quantity of oxygen, which the crew must breathe, after all, and and consummate with that, you’ve got a considerable amount of potential issues that would burn, something from crew clothes to plastic luggage that issues are shipped in. So all these items might doubtlessly burn. So the one lacking factor, then is the ignition supply. So NASA take goes to nice lengths to, you understand, scale back, remove, utterly take away these ignition sources. However it’s at all times a priority when you’ve got an unintended fireplace, that you’ve got an unintended ignition supply, after which it might result in a doubtlessly having a hearth. In order that’s what NASA is worried about. And once more, simply because you’ve got Earth, we have now one regular gravity. On Earth or the area station, we have now zero gravity. Components are there for fireplace, however the gravity makes a distinction when it comes to how the oxygen is transported to the flame. So on Earth, as a result of you’ve got buoyancy, sizzling air tends to rise, and in addition, equally, chilly air form of falls. When you have a have a look at a candle flame, the new air is rising upward, however changing that on the base of the flame is chilly air coming in, and that’s recent oxygen on the flame must maintain itself. So you could possibly assume, nicely, should you go to zero gravity, that that mechanism goes away, you now not have any motive for there isn’t any up or down. And maybe folks have seen some candle flames and 0 gravity, it seems like a small blue ball burning and yeah, there isn’t any up or down, however there’s a circulate. When you have air circulate on an area station, you’ve got circulation to maintain the astronaut respiration recent air. So there truly is a reasonably vital circulation present, should you might principally really feel it blowing previous your palms, due to the air circulation. So due to that, on an area station, that serves as a transport mechanism for the oxygen. So not on Earth, simply having oxygen is sufficient, however you even have to move it to the flame. And on an area station, the way in which that occurs is with circulation. So it’s, once more, you’ll be able to have fires on an area station, and we’re interested by determining the circumstances when it comes to the circulate atmosphere the place the fireplace might happen, after which different one other essential factor is to what measures we take to attenuate the possibility of that taking place when you’ve got, should you do have a hearth. So,

 

Gary Jordan

so quite a lot of what you’re describing could be very security oriented.

 

Paul Ferkul 

Oh yeah, that’s undoubtedly the appliance that we’ve at all times had for the analysis that we do as NASA is within the very utilized and essential side of security for the astronauts and the crew. And there’s attempting to speak about, there’s been, you understand, incidents of fires, and really the Mir area station. Yeah, that was a reasonably vital fireplace occasion on that in order that there’s clearly a really, might be very life threatening, and in order that’s why we take it severely, proper?

 

Gary Jordan 

So, yeah, right here on the Johnson House Heart, very near the place we’re sitting now, constructing 9, they do coaching for the astronauts, simply if there’s an ignition supply and that Smoke does begin to construct up in in a mock up that the astronauts are nicely educated on precisely how one can do in that state of affairs. So whilst you’re trying on the The place does, the place can a flame come from? Are the astronauts secure? , what are methods to mitigate flame resistance? The astronauts are coaching for? Effectively, if there’s a flame, then we form of know what to do and how one can cope with it and be secure anyway.

 

Emily Johnson 

They had been simply doing that coaching once I was on the tour yesterday. Oh, no means. In order that was a enjoyable coincidence.

 

Gary Jordan 

Sure, yeah, that’s an in talks and talks of flames being visible when it comes to coaching. That’s a really visible one, as a result of they really introduce smoke into the into the mock ups. It’s very, very cool.

 

Paul Ferkul 

And I ought to add simply beside the direct utility that NASA is interested by understanding how flame behaves in zero gravity is of significant scientific curiosity. In order a as a disconnected, elementary investigation of the science of flames, that’s what the analysis neighborhood is interested by. Going to zero gravity permits us to check issues that we simply can’t do on Earth. So it leads. To discoveries and, extra importantly, mannequin developments that may be we will’t usually do on Earth, so we will develop refined laptop fashions from this analysis that we get after which enhance the pc fashions on Earth for different purposes. In order that’s that it’s not simply utilized, so far as NASA is worried, that’s their predominant curiosity. However the science neighborhood has benefited drastically from the analysis that we do.

 

Gary Jordan 

Yeah, let’s discuss among the analysis that we have now finished previously. I do know, like, you understand, I’ve finished, I’ve sat in mission management and finished commentary for numerous Cygnus flights, proper? And considered one of our favorites to speak about after a Cygnus is on start and launch from the top of the robotic arm is the Sapphire experiment. It’s one which we talked about so much, and we talked about, you understand, how one can inform the story. Nothing higher visible than among the video from these sapphire experiments. Do you thoughts speaking about sapphire among the different investigations which have occurred in area and possibly what we’ve realized from them?

 

Paul Ferkul 

Yeah, after all, Sapphire ended up being a complete of six totally different investigations in order that, as you mentioned, when the Cygnus undocks after which ultimately burns up within the ambiance, the thought was going means again that. I don’t know if you understand or not, however the authentic plan was to set your entire automobile on fireplace, the within of it. However the automobile house owners didn’t like that concept, as a result of, not as a result of they’re gonna, they’re going to lose a automobile anyway on re entry, however there was a possible to lose management on re entry. Oh yeah. In order that they’re attempting to be sure that after they do the orbital debrun that they want or, you understand, to make it enter over the ocean in order that hits the place it needs and avoids land, after all. In order that was the one concern. That’s the one motive we didn’t truly do your entire Simply mild the automobile inside, which was, which might have been an exquisite full scale check. , we do that on earth on a regular basis. Now we have constructing, mock constructing fires. You’ve most likely seen firefighters going, you understand, fireplace preventing a full scale home fireplace, for instance, for coaching, in order that we might try this on Earth. And I feel it was a good suggestion, nevertheless it simply didn’t pan out that we couldn’t do the entire automobile. However as a concession, we did have we arrange a big, I might say roughly fridge sized, check article, the place we might do giant gas samples. In order that’s what sapphire ended up doing. So we burned giant cloth samples, plastics, different supplies, together with Nomex, that we burned all once more earlier than re getting into the ambiance. It was all automated, and we simply, you understand, actually had the pc management which pattern was burned. A few of them have a number of samples. One of many sapphires had 9 totally different samples. Extra sometimes, a few of them solely had one, one, large one. In order that was, it depends upon a selected no matter sapphire mission it was, they modified fairly a bit. And the great factor was, for the primary time, we truly received not solely zero gravity combustion of a strong materials, however a big scale combustion occasion, which we couldn’t do on ISS sometimes, as a result of, once more, security causes and different different constraints. Actually can’t burn a one meter measurement piece of material, for instance, simply on the area station, we simply couldn’t that couldn’t was not an choice. However once more, since Cygnus was unmanned and going to re enter quickly, that was one thing that we might do, and we realized, received quite a lot of good info from that

 

Gary Jordan 

scientists pushing the boundaries by each means, proper? Let’s mild the entire spacecraft, yeah, however you need to do it for the sake of science. What does What does measurement must do with what you’ll be able to study when it comes to lighting a big pattern? Why is that essential?

 

Paul Ferkul 

Once more, going again to NASA’s sensible curiosity on this, if we do have an unintended fireplace, you understand, an unlikely occasion, hopefully that this received’t occur. But when we do, then you could possibly think about the fireplace goes to rapidly get to be a big scale occasion. So it’s not going to be small samples which are candle sized, and a hearth, as soon as it will get going, it’s not going to be only a tiny flame burning. They have a tendency to unfold and develop. In order that’s the, principally, the, once more, for utility motive. We anticipate if we have now an unattended fireplace in a hearth in a flames get very large. It’s a priority, as a result of we, as we study on sapphire, as soon as the flames get large, they nearly get a lifetime of their very own, in a way, regardless that it’s in zero gravity, as a result of the flame is so giant and it’s it’s a dynamic system. So there’s gas vapor being generated. It leaves us the gas floor, which is a velocity. So principally, have gas jetting off the gas floor causes a puff to the flame. It additionally causes oxygen to come back in. So once more, it’s nearly like a a residing entity at that time. It’s as a result of it’s because it’s consuming gas it will get when it’s very giant, particularly, it might probably truly the it might probably generate its personal circulate to maintain itself going. We noticed a few of this with Sapphire. So once more, it’s similar to the questions or the observations that we don’t sometimes have that we received received from sapphire, or that enormous scale occasion might result in, you understand, surprising outcomes for the flame, as a result of we simply have a look at small flames, however the giant flames are totally different. They’re very totally different. In order that was form of the rationale.

 

Emily Johnson 

and never all, not all supplies burn cleanly too. Like there are some supplies that, as they’re burning, they have a tendency to form of like come off in clumps, nearly like little tear drops. And you may think about that, should you’re in a micro gravity or partial gravity atmosphere, these little teardrops. Are principally turning into little fireballs that would float away and catch one thing else on fireplace. So understanding the totally different properties of the totally different supplies on the totally different scales of flames can also be extremely essential. Not each materials burns the identical means.

 

Gary Jordan 

Yeah, it exhibits you could’t simply mild. You possibly can’t simply ignite a really small pattern in area, after which name it good. No, it’s important to introduce there’s other ways, as a result of there’s so many you don’t actually know, and it form of provides to your normal understanding. The extra that you just do it, and the extra samples that you’ve got. And repetition right here is vital. There’s additionally been numerous different experiments, proper? I imply, Sapphire is only one that I do know, that I’ve talked about earlier than, however there’s issues known as LUCI or SoFIE, I feel is one other one

 

Paul Ferkul 

Yeah there’s, through the years, we’ve finished fairly a bit in combustion analysis. I ought to return and say the Sapphire additionally did totally different oxygen concentrations, the place the area station is air at one ambiance, form of what we’re used to on Earth respiration. There may be now speak of as we transfer to different worlds and different different habitats and even different autos, to extend the oxygen and reduce the strain. In order that was one other parameter that sapphire checked out. So we did some assessments at increased increased oxygen and decrease strain. In order that, once more, for the primary time, we received some knowledge in potential exploration atmospheres, which NASA then could be very interested by . As a result of, yeah, should you’re going to construct a automobile in these circumstances, here’s what the flame seems like, and right here’s a complete new set of potential issues we received to fret about. In order that was simply to complete that story. Yeah, however yeah, there’s been many experiments that we’ve needed to through the years have checked out combustion. Extra not too long ago, the LUCI experiment, which stands for lunar combustion investigation, was made use of a Blue Origin rocket, which for the primary time, the Blue Origin was a sounding rocket, which suggests it principally simply goes enters area after which comes again right down to earth. So we sometimes get roughly two and a half or three minutes of zero gravity, after which the air the automobile comes again right down to earth and lands just about proper on the launch web site. So in contrast to the area shuttle days, which truly go to orbit after which go across the Earth, this simply goes up and down. So we get two and a half minutes of zero gravity for a signing rocket. However for the primary time, uniquely, in February of this 12 months, Blue Origin did a launch the place they spun your entire capsule to generate a centrifugal drive. So the rotation fee of the automobile was 11 RPMs, and at that rotation fee, we received a web centrifugal drive at our experiment location of lunar G so it’s the identical as being on a merry go spherical, playground. You run a merry go spherical, you spinner, spin round, you’re going to really feel a drive appearing radially outward. That’s a centrifugal drive, and it serves as a analogy, or a approach to simulate lunar gravity should you go to inter rotation. So for the primary time, we truly did a combustion attest for prolonged length at Lunar G and this rotating atmosphere, and it was the outcomes had been very profitable. We received some good knowledge. We burned a fab a material pattern, and we burned a plastic rod, and we received that. We only recently received the info again. In fact, we’re going via the evaluation, and really shortly, we’ll publish paper on this. So we’re trying ahead to that. Very thrilling. In order that was, once more, that was a lunar G experiment, and going again a number of years, there’s additionally a one other ISS experiment known as SoFIE, which stands for strong gas investigation experiment, the place we’re burning totally different sorts of strong fuels, however now in zero gravity, however with the drive circulate. , as I mentioned on the very starting, you understand the fireplace triangle, with oxygen, you want oxygen, however in area, you might want to additionally transport that oxygen. So the way in which we try this for SoFIE is we, we had what we name a combustion tunnel. So it’s a form of like a wind tunnel. We put the pattern in a wind tunnel, and we blow air previous it, and we’ve burned many various sorts of gas samples, and there’s been 5 investigators in a program and received, once more, numerous knowledge. I might think about, should you did a search, you’d discover as you talked about earlier, many compelling pictures from the flame check, as a result of they do provide afford very good photos. However anyway, that’s additionally one other experiment that we’ve finished combustion.

 

Gary Jordan 

There’s so much right here, proper? And it’s, and right here’s, right here’s the theme that I feel leads properly into our dialog about FM squared, is quite a lot of the investigations that you just talked about, aside from LUCI, actually needed to do with understanding the microgravity atmosphere, what occurs, what occurs to flames and microgravity, which may add to the context of what we learn about flames in 1g however altering the gravity equation and altering to and possibly LUCI was, was the experiment that basically led to that is, hey, relying on the gravity. And also you may need already recognized this by however from from micro gravity is once you change the gravity, it issues. Issues change in the case of flame conduct. Now, Emily, I keep in mind us chatting somewhat bit earlier than this dialog right here, and also you kind of described the. That lunar, the lunar atmosphere, lunar gravity, is that this Goldilocks zone. So hopefully you’ll be able to kick us off by kind of main into the this lunar element of flame conduct by describing what that’s.

 

Emily Johnson 

Yeah, completely. So once I first began working with with the combustion crew on a few of these initiatives, I used to be attempting to grasp, you understand, these flame properties throughout the gravity spectrum. And somebody had defined it to me that it’s form of like partial gravity is just like the Goldilocks zone, like in microgravity, the burn fee is somewhat too gradual, and we get that good, you understand, round flame form, and it’s very onerous for the flame to maintain itself with out the circulate that Paul has been speaking about. After which, you understand, on in 1g the rationale {that a} flame sparkles is as a result of that burn fee is somewhat bit too quick. However then once you go to partial g, like in lunar gravity, you’ll discover that the flame is secure. The Flame doesn’t flicker, and it’s as a result of it’s in that Goldilocks zone of that burn fee, and we anticipate the Mars atmosphere to be related, however clearly somewhat bit totally different. I don’t know that we have now a complete lot of Mars knowledge, however that’ll be one thing actually thrilling to stay up for as nicely, proper?

 

Gary Jordan 

Yeah. So that is one thing that most likely is of specific curiosity to scientists which are combustion, proper? Is that this? Was this? Emily confirmed me some images of the particular experiment and the movies of them. And it was, it was fascinating, proper? As a result of on the different ends of the spectrum that she was describing in microgravity and 1g the flames extinguished, however lunar stored going. Was that? Was that on LUCI that you just described, or is {that a} totally different experiment the place you discovered

 

Emily Johnson 

that was the parabolic flight?

 

Gary Jordan 

That was a parabolic flight, sure,

 

Emily Johnson 

Yeah, we had examined a material in it was the very same circumstances in 1g after which additionally in lunar G on the parabolic flight. And in 1g the flame ignites, nevertheless it self extinguishes fairly rapidly. However within the lunar G check, it ignites and it retains burning. And that was, I feel, the primary time we’ve seen that conduct on this specific materials that it that it will extinguish in 1g however it will hold burning in lunar G, yeah.

 

Paul Ferkul 

And as Emily mentioned, that Goldilocks zone, it’s a it ignites in 1g however the circulate is so excessive that there’s quite a lot of cooling happening as a result of the new air rises, so the flame loses an excessive amount of warmth and it simply goes out. However should you go to the decreased gravity, have somewhat bit a lot slower circulate leaving the flame, and it’s truly the warmth loss is much less. In order that’s how the flame can survive in these circumstances, by simply lowering that circulate pace somewhat bit and minimizing the warmth losses.

 

Gary Jordan 

So is that this? It was this, I suppose, hypothesized earlier than even lunar combustion experiments began, like, hey, we’d like, we most likely want to begin doing investigations into this, as a result of we’re considering that it’s going to be robust to extinguish, that these flames won’t extinguish the way in which that we predict.

 

Paul Ferkul

Yeah, undoubtedly. In truth, going again to my advisor undergraduate advisor. He truly was his idea, that he actually postulated this manner again when trying on the knowledge and saying, Effectively, simply form of logically, we give it some thought lengthy sufficient, zero g, the place issues actually burn, very poorly, until you’ve got circulate, and 1g the place issues burn, nicely, there’s received to in between. What’s going to occur in between? And he principally ended up theorizing that there’s most likely some extent in between that’s that’s ideally suited or optimized for burning. So he postulated this manner again when, and even Nineteen Eighties and the work we’ve been doing, experiments have kind of urged that is the case in actuality. So,

 

Gary Jordan 

And right here we’re with this imagery that you just confirmed me. It was, it was completely fascinating to see a few of this now. Now the subsequent steps, after all, are okay, nicely, that is most likely one thing that we should always examine, proper? We’re speaking about returning people to the moon, and naturally, after they return, we wish them to be secure proper on the floor. So, so that is, that is undoubtedly an investigation that we need to perceive. Enter FM squared, Emily, if you wish to kick us off as to this experiment,

 

Emily Johnson 

certain. So yeah, FM squared will probably be kind of a observe alongside experiment to, you understand, like Paul was saying within the final 20 or 30 years of those combustion science assessments and microgravity after which main into partial gravity. So FM squared will probably be a payload that may fly to the moon. We’re hoping in summer season of 2026 we’re working with a industrial supplier. We need to ship 4 samples to the moon, and we’re going to mild them on fireplace and observe that conduct and take a look at to determine, you understand, the place these samples will burn, and in addition will after they don’t burn. We’re going to have a look at totally different oxygen concentrations and actually attempt to map out what occurs in actual partial gravity.

 

Gary Jordan 

So there’s most likely not quite a lot of you understand you need to ship one thing to the moon. You need to take into consideration payload measurement. You need to take into consideration payload design. You need to take into consideration ensuring. Or that, no matter, wherever you place this payload, you’re going to get the info that you really want, which hopefully, fingers crossed, is video, sure, sure. All proper, I’m very excited as a result of that, as a result of that’s, you understand, one of many perks about this sorts of, these sorts of bodily sciences, is the is the movies there. So in the case of experiment design and how one can design the ability and ensure it’s going to get all of the science that Dr Ferkul needs. What do you How is the ability itself designed? So

 

Emily Johnson 

we have now an incredible engineering crew working with us. They’re from Sierra Lobo contracting firm, completely superb crew of engineers, they usually have managed to give you a {hardware} design that’s truly able to getting used on a number of industrial suppliers. So going ahead, if we needed to do one other one, and we’ll, you understand, we will put this similar {hardware} design on a number of suppliers and simply swap the samples out. However the {hardware} consists of a combustion chamber with clearly, pattern holders within the center, and two cameras, some oxygen an oxygen sensor, CO2 sensor, some temperature sensors to collect totally different varieties of information. And basically how the experiment goes to work is when it lands on the moon, it can already be pre stuffed, truly, with the the atmosphere for the primary check. So the the igniter will kick off, pattern will ignite, will gather the info, then the chamber will vent to get that ambiance out, all these combustion merchandise out, the chamber will refill with the atmosphere for the subsequent check, and it’ll repeat that cycle 4 occasions. Oh, and what are the totally different environments, totally different ranges of oxygen? Paul, do you need to discuss that? Totally different ranges.

 

Paul Ferkul 

We’re going to fill two totally different oxygen beginning oxygen focus is like one check. You may begin at 30% oxygen, the subsequent check at 25% and the essential factor right here is, nicely, initially, we’ll repeat these assessments on earth, and that will probably be our stage of comparability. So going to duplicate precisely what we did on the moon and do it on Earth. And what we’re going to see, moreover the flame form and construction being totally different, it’s we’re going to document oxygen through the burn. So as a result of we it’s a unlucky constraint that we have now to be a really small quantity. We don’t have quite a lot of of area as a result of it’s, it’s, you understand, that’s a commodity to go to the moon enhanced. Can’t be a really large chamber. However the profit is, because it burns, it’s going to devour oxygen and naturally deplete the oxygen within the chamber. So in some unspecified time in the future it’s going to exit, and we will document the oxygen that it goes out. In order that’s going to present us a, what you’ll be able to name an extinction oxygen worth. So if we are saying, ignite a selected pattern at 30% after which do it on the moon, it’d exit at, say, 22% it’s going to devour some oxygen. So we document that, after which we will immediately examine that to the check on Earth and see, does it additionally exit at 22% you understand, we suspect not, based mostly on what we imagine, we predict the moon, as we talked about earlier, might be the extra harmful when it comes to flammability from oxygen perspective. In order that’s a direct direct comparability that we will do from these assessments,

 

Gary Jordan 

Attention-grabbing. A number of rounds, a number of samples, a number of environments. It’s it offers you quite a lot of flexibility. However right here’s Paul over right here, desirous to get an enormous factor to mild on fireplace for as ordinary, however you gotta, you gotta choose very, very particularly. So I’m certain quite a lot of thought has been put into, okay, nicely, right here’s, right here’s the room that I’m giving with, right here’s the, right here’s the constraints that I’m giving with, if that is gonna get a primary go. , right here’s, right here’s what’s essential to me and the scientific neighborhood

 

Emily Johnson 

and timing of this experiment is absolutely essential too, you understand, we need to get this up on the moon as quickly as attainable and get that knowledge collected so we will feed that again to future Artemis experiments. So we’re actually attempting to get this on the moon earlier than the Artemis three mission, earlier than the primary crewed lunar touchdown, once more. So

 

Gary Jordan 

So then that may be essential, mate, from a scientific perspective, a security perspective, possibly each, yeah, each, for certain. Yeah, okay, very cool. So, nicely, nice. The place are you guys now, with the with the FM squared experiment, {hardware} is in work finished? Yeah, I’m certain you guys are right here in Houston for a motive, proper, proper?

 

Emily Johnson 

So {hardware} is at the moment being constructed, yep, and we’re on monitor to ship the {hardware} subsequent spring. Yeah, like I mentioned, we’re working with a industrial supplier that we’ll be launching. So yeah, {hardware} is being constructed as we communicate.

 

Gary Jordan 

Very cool. And what are you guys doing in Houston?

 

Emily Johnson 

I’m truly right here for the NASA subsequent program. Very cool. Yeah, it’s a management coaching program. In order that I’ve been right here for the previous week for that.

 

Paul Ferkul 

And I took benefit of the journey in the present day to speak to among the ISS of us that I’ve been working with through the years and operations and and so forth. So it’s good to attach. And, yeah,

 

Gary Jordan 

And it’s actually good to have you ever guys right here. In order that’s good. I imply. The place you guys are on monitor, and quite a lot of work is being finished, and really excited for future alternatives to get this examined. I needed to form of speak in regards to the security side of issues now, when it comes to the timing of you understand, such as you mentioned, such as you mentioned, Emily, you need to do that as quickly as attainable. However after all, we do need to flip it round and get one thing useful Proper. And, after all, timelines for scientific experiments may be over prolonged durations of time is to really prep science and prep operations and procedures. So how do you intend to you understand, are you already related with the scientific neighborhood, with the Artemis neighborhood to be sure that that is on monitor or that is being monitored, and persons are conscious and looking out ahead to what it’s important to share when it comes to the outcomes.

 

Paul Ferkul 

Effectively, the plain, once more, is as a result of we’re going to a special gravity stage. That’s the massive query. Gravity modifications? Effectively, how are issues going to alter for security, but in addition now that we’re speaking about having a human presence prolonged, a human presence on the moon, the place you could possibly have folks residing for, you understand, upwards of weeks at a time, they’re going to be inside a habitat that’s going to be stuffed to some oxygen focus. In order that’s one other query, is, as a result of there’s, there’s truly causes to to do have an atmosphere that’s increased oxygen however decrease strain, and has to do so much with EVAs that the astronauts will probably be doing, or or the this, this additionally has to do with the protection of the construction, in order that decrease strain doesn’t want as a lot of a cloth to take care of that strain distinction. However so there’s causes to go to increased oxygen low strain, however there’s additionally undoubtedly, we all know that it’s going to extend flammability, in order that’s a priority. So we needed these assessments that we’re doing, FM squared will probably be at increased oxygens and decrease pressures which are which are kind of envisioned. In order that’s a part of it. So not simply the lunar G side, which is, after all, the primary motive, but in addition the precise in situ environments that we’ll be , excessive oxygen, low strain. And lastly, after all, going again to the gas triangle, is, is gas. So what are we going to be burning? And that’s the place we’re interacting with of us which are truly constructing these are contemplating constructing these habitats. So what sort of materials, for instance, proper now, we predict a number one candidate is likely to be one thing that’s used for a a typical, what’s known as a cargo switch bag. So it’s a, it’s a form of Nomex that that’s quite common for transferring {hardware} round. In order that’s a, like, a great consultant gas that we had been contemplating burning as considered one of our samples, as a result of that’s going to be up there, and we’re going to see how that truly burns on on the moon in comparison with Earth. In order that that’s fairly essential, useful knowledge to get again from that,

 

Gary Jordan 

proper? Yeah, and undoubtedly one thing to contemplate, proper? These cargo switch luggage or tried and true supplies have been flown on stations appear to be working superb. So use, use what you understand for, for missions to the moon and see what, see precisely what occurs. So that is this can, I feel, and Emily may right me if I’m unsuitable. Is that this the primary lunar floor flame check?

 

Emily Johnson 

Sure, this would be the first ever flames on the lunar floor.

 

Gary Jordan 

Very cool. There’s been, it’s been in lunar gravity, proper with the parabolic flights, with the Blue Origin flight, with with the centrifugal drive. However this one truly on the lunar floor. So I feel the Yeah, scientific neighborhood is certainly trying ahead to quite a lot of this. However you understand, you’ve got somewhat little bit of of understanding of flames within the lunar atmosphere based mostly on the parabolic and centrifugal experiments that you just’ve finished. So you’ve got some modeling and however that is actually essential. I feel, I feel good to drive house is, you understand, you’ll be able to solely fly to the floor so many occasions and have a great understanding. And I feel this the flying once you do truly fly, it lends properly to the way you analyze that knowledge on the bottom. And so Paul, I’m certain that you understand, no matter you study on the floor actually enhances the modeling, and that modeling can go a great distance when it comes to understanding the scientific worth and the protection worth that you understand you simply you burn it, what’s certain, nevertheless it’s all of the work on the bottom that you just truly, that truly results in one thing useful.

 

Paul Ferkul 

Yeah, it’s an essential piece. It’s like placing all collectively, yeah? So it’s not like sequential. You possibly can’t simply say, are we going to do the modeling in the present day, we go to the moon tomorrow, after which we’ll return to do one thing else. So it simply, it’s a community, actually. So one one kind of bolsters and feeds on the opposite one. So the lunar assessments are going to be getting will will help the modeling outcomes we get, which, in flip, would the modeling can then assist us to develop higher assessments to do sooner or later for if we have now alternatives to do further testing. And that’s at all times the way it works with modeling. It’s kind of, it’s a really interactive course of. That’s why we at all times say modeling is is significant to any good analysis undertaking, as a result of you may get a lot with experimental knowledge, however then, like, if we after FM squared is accomplished, then that was an amazing alternative, nevertheless it’s you understand what then so what we nonetheless on earth we have now, we will make good thing about that knowledge and develop the mannequin, and strengthen the mannequin, after which truly. What is going to occur in different instances which are related, after which finally, once more, produce much more, or produce different experiments that give us further knowledge that we’re lacking. And once more, it kind of feeds backwards and forwards, and it bolsters, they bolster one another.

 

Emily Johnson 

and one of many causes that it’s so essential for us to have FM squared on the lunar floor is that quite a lot of our floor analog services both a parabolic flight or a drop tower, you understand, to get simulated partial gravity we we have now to make use of centrifuge more often than not. And within the parabolic flights, you understand, there’s G jitter. Primarily, these floor services in the way in which that we simulate partial gravity right here on Earth is just not good, and with a view to get the very best quality knowledge to feed into these fashions, to have essentially the most correct outcomes attainable once we’re speaking about astronaut security, proper, we actually do must go to the lunar floor to gather a few of that knowledge.

 

Paul Ferkul 

Yeah, that that provides the benchmark. I imply, that’s, that’s what the truth is. So we have to know what that’s to develop the fashions. Yeah,

 

Gary Jordan 

very, crucial. And I’m certain you guys are fairly excited to, you understand, you mentioned, like, subsequent spring you could possibly be prepared. In order that’s, that’s not too far-off. So it’s, it’s received to be an thrilling time for for the neighborhood to really get this going. And FMC, FM squared, you understand, hopefully fly very quickly.

 

Emily Johnson 

Yeah, completely. We’re so pleased with this and so excited for it. I feel this simply goes to point out there’s, there’s much more work that must be finished on this space of examine. And we did simply get approval to construct a observe on FM squared payload. So trying ahead to that as nicely. There’s, there’s a lot extra to come back right here, and we’re very excited for it.

 

Gary Jordan 

Lots extra to do. That’s proper?

 

Paul Ferkul 

Yeah, it’s fairly thrilling. And as Emily mentioned, we have now a really, you understand, a succesful crew and a reasonably sizable crew once we couldn’t do something with out the fellows, they’re doing the engineering and the analysis evaluation for us. However, you understand, getting to consider this experiment, it’s the, as Emily mentioned earlier, the primary time we’re going to be burning utilizing fireplace on one other world in a within the method that people are used to utilizing fireplace. So archeologically, I feel I appeared up the date that folks assume that we use fireplace on Earth First for for no matter cooking or software making or no matter, and it’s roughly 800,000 years in the past. So practically 1,000,000 years in the past, they deduced the that’s when folks began to make use of fireplace. So we don’t know the precise date, however we don’t we’ll know when FM squared flies. We are going to know the date that we do a hearth in an atmosphere like persons are used to burning for the primary time on one other world. In order that’s fairly thrilling that we’ll know the primary time we truly burn one thing on one other world.

 

Gary Jordan 

Massive image, it’s, it’s, you understand, clever beings utilizing fireplace on one other world. That’s very inspiring to consider it that means.

 

Paul Ferkul 

Yeah, it’s like, nearly like a benchmark for humanity too. After we, you understand, discover different worlds, that’s one of many first ones will probably be nicely, when do you make use of the instruments that we’ve used on on Earth, like like fireplace, for instance? After which once you finally have a self sustaining colony in some unspecified time in the future sooner or later, that will probably be one other one, after which, and it simply goes out from there. So it’s only a stepping stone, nevertheless it’s fairly vital.

 

Gary Jordan 

Wow, this has been so cool to talk with each of you about this experiment. I do know quite a lot of work has gone into this, however you understand, it simply to me, exhibits the worth of simply these what’s seemingly like, minor particulars, like, oh, what occurs once you form of change gravity somewhat bit, how the it might probably excite a whole neighborhood to actually, to actually do an investigation and and it actually lends to creating human spaceflight profitable as nicely. The protection is large, whether or not you’re going to the moon, whether or not you’re going to Mars, proper? It’s crucial to know the way these totally different gravity environments, how this totally different composition of atmospheres, you understand, the triangle that you just talked about, Dr. Ferkul,  is essential, and so that is this has been very thrilling for me to speak with each of you in the present day. Respect you, each Emily and Paul. Thanks for approaching.

 

Paul Ferkul 

Thanks very a lot.

 

Emily Johnson 

Thanks for having us.

 

Gary Jordan

Hey, thanks for sticking round. Hope you realized one thing in the present day.

You possibly can try the most recent from across the company at nasa.gov and you could find our full assortment of episodes and all the opposite fantastic NASA podcasts we have now at nasa.gov/podcasts.

On social media we’re on the NASA Johnson House Heart pages of Fb, X, and Instagram. When you have any questions for us or strategies for future episodes, you’ll be able to electronic mail us at NASA-Houstonpodcast@mail.nasa.gov

This interview was Recorded on Could 9, 2025.

Our producer is Dane Turner. Audio engineers are Will Flato and Daniel Tohill, and our social media is managed by Dominique Crespo. Houston, Now we have a Podcast was created and is supervised by me, Gary Jordan. And naturally, thanks once more to Emily Johnson and Dr. Paul Ferkul, for taking the time to come back on the present.

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