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Prof. Orsola De Marco is a Professor at Macquarie College and Deputy-Director of the Astrophysics and Area Applied sciences Analysis Centre at Macquarie College in Sydney. She obtained her PhD at College Faculty London as a Perren Scholar, after which she was a Swiss Nationwide Science Basis analysis fellow at ETH Zurich, a FUSE Fellow at College Faculty London and Asimov Fellow on the American Museum of Pure Historical past in New York Metropolis. She was an ARC Future Fellow. Her analysis focusses on stellar interactions and the way they alter the construction and evolution of stars in a number of methods.
Transcript:
Brendan: Welcome to the Astrophiz Podcasts. My identify is Brendan O ‘Brien, and first of all, we would like to acknowledge Australia’s first astronomers, the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander individuals, the conventional house owners and custodians. of the land we are on. This episode is produced on Yorta Yorta and Wurundjeri nation of the Kulin Nation.
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Right now I’m at the ‘Transients Down Underneath’ Convention in Melbourne, Australia, recognized affectionately as the TDU Convention.
It’s the first face-to-face astrophysics convention to be held in Australia, since COVID hit us again in 2020. And it’s nice to see a couple of hundred delegates and invited audio system right here assembly and sharing their analysis in particular person in such an thrilling setting right here at the Swinburne College of Know-how … and a massive shout out to Ashley and Jeff who allowed me to attend and document some interviews.
I’m recording in a repurposed planetarium. which is very ‘stay’ with tons of exhausting timber and glass surfaces.
Right now I’m right here with Professor Orsola De Marco, who is a Professor at Macquarie College and Deputy Director of the Macquarie College. Astrophysics and Area Applied sciences Analysis Middle. And I’m additionally very excited to be with her right here on Wurundjeri land at the Transients Down Underneath Convention.
Orsola was born in Verona in Italy, the hometown of Romeo and Juliet, and she grew up in stunning Bologna. She left residence to end excessive college at the United World Faculty of the Adriatic in Trieste northern Italy, and then, after a transient interlude, instructing crusing in Scotland, moved to the College Faculty uf London to examine astronomy and stayed on there, and obtained her PhD … after which she was a Swiss Nationwide Science Basis Analysis Fellow at ETH Zurich, the place Einstein studied, and then, a FUSE Fellow at the College Faculty in London and then moved over to New York Metropolis to be the Asimov Fellow at the American Museum of Pure Historical past.
After this, she moved to Macquarie College in Australia and shortly thereafter she grew to become an Australian Analysis Council Future Fellow and Orsola’s analysis focuses on the life and loss of life struggles between stars in a number of star methods.
Orsola is additionally a nice populariser of science. Her dedication to each authentic analysis and efficient outreach is legendary, and she’s been the Einstein lecturer for the Australian Institute of Physics, which will come as no shock when you later hear about how Einstein impressed her from a very younger age. …
And by the manner, her Einstein lecture is unbelievable and can be discovered on YouTube at tinyurl DOT com /orsola18. That’s O -R -S -O -L -A -18, all lowercase … the quantity 18.
And up till just lately, Orsola was additionally the director of Macquarie College’s Affiliation for Astronomy, together with Macquarie’s Observatory and Planetarium and their Astronomy Open Nights, collectively welcoming over 3 ,000 guests every 12 months.
And proper now, Professor De Marco is down right here in Melbourne as an invited speaker at this wonderful TVU convention. And we’ve obtained a whole lot of presenters and contributors from all over the world bringing collectively the very newest discoveries in this sensational science of transient astronomy.
Thanks for talking with us as we speak Orsala.
Orsola: You’re very welcome.
Brendan: So, first up, thank you. Earlier than we speak about your present analysis and the TDU convention, can you inform us about rising up in stunning Bologna, please? Oh, wow! And may you inform us about these physics experiments you did on a practice as a 4 -year -old and how you first grew to become in science and house and all this stuff?
Orsola: So I’m Italian. I grew up in Bologna for the majority of my childhood. And as you can think about, you know, this is a place full of historical past, full of astronomy, Bologna and Padua.
Really, my father lived in Padua and my mom in Bologna. So I grew up between the two cities. each of which had, you know, Galileo instructing at these universities. And so it was variety of in my DNA.
That mentioned, my mother and father had been not scientists. And so that is not the place my ardour got here from. I suppose there’s some youngsters simply are like that, proper? They simply are curious about how issues work.
And speaking of these experiments on the practice, I used to drive my mom insane as a result of what I was in … is if the practice is shifting and I am leaping in the practice, do I get left behind?
So what I would do, I would take cigarette butts which are widespread in that time and I would put it in the spot the place I was and I was leaping up and ready to see whether or not when I got here down I would be coming down behind it … proper? … as the practice ought to have moved beneath me. Of course as Galileo had himself experimented with a very lengthy time in the past, this is not the manner it occurs.
If you are shifting with the practice, you are shifting already. When you leap, even if you’re in the air, you protect the movement that you have when you’re truly on the floor in the practice, and you go with the practice. So when you come down, you come down precisely at the identical relative spot in the practice. So I would be leaping down again on the cigarette butt. You know, the nature of my experimental self, which began there and ended there
Right now I’m a theorist, I don’t do experiments anymore.
Brendan: Nicely, inform us a little bit about these college days.
Orsola: Um, like many youngsters like me, and if you go round this convention, I’m certain the story will be repeated over and over and over. I was a little bizarre. I was, you know, bullied not severely, however, you know, I was the odd one out. I was not very well-liked. with the different youngsters and so I spent my college years in relative isolation .;..some faculties being higher than others … you know my major college was horrible my center college was nice and my excessive college was horrible … and that took me to truly needing to change college as a result of issues had gone actually unhealthy and that’s truly when I left Bologna for the subsequent … kind of the subsequent chapter in my life
Brendan: Nicely let’s have a look at that. Let’s summarise it briefly. After college you moved from Bologna College to educate crusing in Scotland then you went down to UCL London the place you had been awarded your first bachelor’s science diploma with first to class honours and topped your 12 months at UCL London.
You stayed on at UCL London. then you flew over to EDH Zurich for a analysis fellowship, then over to the States for a whereas for one other analysis fellowship at the American Museum of Pure Historical past.
You additionally did a lot of outreach, probably a bit like this, however on a larger scale, I think about, then that massive transfer down right here to the Southern Hemisphere … and now, now years later you’re nonetheless right here. However may you give us the why and how you organized that transfer from London to New York?
This is for our early profession astronomers who are now listening. And do you need to point out that early ardour for crusing?
Orsola: Sure … so crusing’s been in my blood. Really this did come from my mother and father. My father was a massive sailo and I sailed and was round boats and boatyards all my life.
So when I completed excessive college … so I did excessive college the final two years in the United World Faculty of Geographic, so that was not in Bologna, was an worldwide college, was in English, was boarding, so very, very, very completely different. And then I returned residence.
I thought possibly I ought to do college in Bologna, however after three months, I simply hated it. I discovered all these bullying and horrible issues. It took me three months. Italy’s great however generally it can be horrible and I simply left once more and I went to London.
However I was variety of early on the begin of the subsequent 12 months. I had to variety of take six months off so I determined to educate crusing and I determined in my infinite knowledge to do it in the greatest nation for crusing in the complete extensive world and that is Scotland….Not!
It’s freaking chilly. The wind is howling the complete time. It was simply exhausting. however it actually, it was a formative interval of time, let’s say it that manner.
So I conquered my fears and my difficulties and I had a actually truly good time in the finish. And after that, I went again to London. Now, being a sailor stays with me.
I personal a boat, it’s my second boat. I purchased my first boat about three weeks earlier than giving beginning to my first little one. It was extraordinarily pregnant and individuals couldn’t consider it. that I would simply purchase my first sailboat.
At that time my husband was questioning why doesn’t she like ice cream with anchovies as a substitute of wanting a sailboat. However it turns out it’s been a great expertise to have a boat and youngsters and youngsters on boats.
And I have purchased my second boat right here in Australia. I am a sailor. I invite all my associates.
It’s unbelievable. I love it!
Brendan: Right here you go, you’re out on the boat on the harbour. or you go out in the ocean?
Orsola: Each. Principally in … truly it’s not in the Sydney Harbour. Stunning … it’s in the subsequent harbour up known as Pittwater. And we have a nice time. And truly the cause is not simply having a nice time.
It’s additionally that when you sail, it’s very self -sufficient. You’re very, at one with nature in the sense that, you know, you’re utilizing the wind for propulsion.
The water is wonderful … it’s a commodity as everyone ought to know … and so there’s a lot of understanding that you don’t personal it.
It owns you and you ought to have respect.
Brendan: Thanks Orsola. So the plan for as we speak is to primarily focus on the science and we’re going to have a fast look at your PhD then we’ll hear about your newest discoveries and your present analysis and going again the title of your thesis paper is “Cool Wolf-Rayet central stars and their planetary nebulae” … now I additionally suppose Wolf-Rayet stars are fairly cool however to hold in candy withour new listeners can you give us a skinny on what Wolf-Rayet stars are and what is a planetary nebula please?
Orsola: Wolf-Rayet stars Okay … so right here we go. So Wolf-Rayet stars are principally related with large stars … large means extra than 10 instances the mass of the Solar. They have a tendency to have very highly effective winds and these winds generate the circumstances to have emission traces.
So these are simply like shiny bits of radiation in one wave. Now what I did my PhD thesis on. is truly a completely different kind of star. They look similar to the observer however it was realized that not large at all.
They’re truly very a lot a photo voltaic mass star so they’re often 10 to 20 instances lighter than the large counterparts that are the well-known ones. And they are central stars of planetary nebulae as a result of the manner they advanced is so they’re principally the solar, proper?
The solar when it will get older than it is as we speak. It blows, it inflates, it turns into bigger, ultimately loses a lot of mass and the bit in the center stays a star and the bit has been misplaced turns into a nebula and we name that the planetary nebula.
The bit in the center continues to stay on and change and generally it develops the attribute of a Wolf-Rayet star and that’s often when there is no hydrogen left in the star at all, which is a bit odd in itself as a result of variety of every thing is hydrogen, proper?
Stars .. the universe, every thing. So these stars someway have managed to lose their hydrogen and when they do they develop the traits that permit the particular ‘look’ to emerge to the observer.
Brendan: Improbable, thank you Wolf-Rayet 101. Okay, let’s let’s comply with up a bit on that thesis paper for our undergrad and PhD candidates listening.
If you want to have some inspiration for your acknowledgement part in your thesis, your dissertation, have a look at Orsola’s thesis on the UCL web site.
I cherished it. I suppose your acknowledgement part at the very starting of your thesis is so cool. It encourages you to hold on studying and to keep engaged.
It’s very entertaining in itself … earlier than you get caught into the science. However again to the thesis, I see that you’ve used spectrograph information from the Anglo-Australian telescope, the William Herschel telescope, and the Isaac Newton telescope, and Hubble, of course.
However I know we’re not allowed to have favourites simply like our youngsters … however can you inform us if you have a suite of favorite devices now that are doing the heavy lifting for you and the most productive information gathering for you proper now?
Orsola: It’s very attention-grabbing that you simply dug up that acknowledgement. I didn’t even bear in mind. I had to go again to my thesis and learn it. “Oh, sure, I bear in mind” … So I used a lot of observations throughout my PhD. That is true. The Anglo -Australian Observatory Echelle Spectrograph was wonderful … amazingly, I’d by no means been to Australia. I by no means took these observations. They got here to me by way of my supervisors and Echelle was constructed at UCL the place I was doing my PhD for the Anglo -Australian Telescope.
As it was recognized at the time, as we speak is recognized as the the Australian Astronomical Telescope as a result of the UK pulled out many years in the past. I guess that was a premonition of instances to come, I would have ultimately come to Australia however I had not been there observing myself.
Right now I’m principally a theorist so I use computer systems extra than I use telescopes however of course observations are very shut to my coronary heart as I acknowledge that I do consider remark and concept do not work intently sufficient at this time.
So I suppose that as a result of I like transients, this is the subject of this convention, I like issues that change. I suppose that in the finish the Rubin Observatory will be enjoying a large position … it’s not on-line but. And something that offers me gentle versus time, we name it gentle curve, is actually one thing that I am going to look at.
Brendan: Thanks,Orsola. OK, let’s speak now about one of the iconic telescopes that’s producing a lot of nice analysis proper now, the James Webb Area Telescope.
I discovered there are 2 ,000 or 3 ,000 papers referencing the JWST on the ArXiv server. And we’ve obtained the early launch pictures coming down.
And one of your latest Nature Astronomy papers is coming up. “The messy loss of life of a a number of star system and the ensuing planetary nebula as noticed by the JWST.”
Now what understandings have come about about NGC 3132 from the JWST pictures that you studied and what else can we count on from the JWST?
Orsola: JWST? Okay … so it’s a very attention-grabbing story how that paper got here about. The two traits JWST has which are actually essential and wonderful for us are one that it sees in the mid –infrared … so it can see radiation from very cool issues.
And the second one is it’s simply bloody detailed. It’s simply so deep and so exact.
And these two issues collectively made that paper. However the attention-grabbing factor in the story is how we got here up with that paper, that concept, that discovery.
Our discovery was actually on the day when the press launch got here out and JWST individuals had been all displaying these first 5 pictures. One of them was of the planetary nebula …what I was speaking about earlier than, this variety of the ejected fuel of solar-like stars.
And we had been wanting stay, it was night in Australia, and I see one thing so unusual.
So this object was recognized earlier than JWST had taken footage. it was recognized to be a visible binary, so you see the two stars, the place the central star of the planetary nebula is a tremendous faint sizzling white star, tremendous faint. In earlier pictures, it’s a tiny little factor. The different man is a star fairly shiny proper subsequent to it. Now, what was attention-grabbing in that image that was being offered for the first time to the world was that the faint man was tremendous shiny and very crimson.
… and we thought what? First of all tremendous was tremendous faint and tremendous shiny and additionally it’s a sizzling star they’re not crimson they’re often very very blue why was it crimson?
It had to have mud round it had to have a shroud a cool goopy mud round this very sizzling star so I actually emailed two or three colleagues and I mentioned “What is going on this factor’s obtained a mud mist … it should have a mud disk or some mud round it … Let’s take a fast look.”
And so we, we did a spherical of calls with every different and then we thought, we ought to … I don’t know, problem a little press launch. However in Astronomy, that’s not all you do.
You don’t do press releases, this is embodied simply as a result of you noticed one thing on the tele. So we determined to do a very small paper, the information’s public. Let’s analyze what this mud seems like. So we began a little paper with possibly… 5, six individuals.
Inside two weeks, there had been 69-70 authors in this manufacturing. We went from writing a Month-to-month Notices paper to a Nature Astronomy paper.
We discovered a lot extra. Of course, the element and nature of the JWST confirmed us all these weird rings round the object that had not fairly been apparent earlier than. And so in the end we did the hallmark and this is fairly widespread I should say in planetary nebula of the complexity that can solely be achieved with one companion round the essential star if not extra.
And in that case there’s positively proof that there’s been a binary interactions that means very shut companions in addition to wider binaries so there has to be at least three objects plus the one that we see in the JWST image … which is the visible companion … so that’s at least 4.
And then we come up with a fifth. If one thing is the case, then it has to be additionally one other one. So then grew to become the attention-grabbing loss of life. Of course,
Planetary Nebulae are the loss of life trials of solar-like stars or the messy loss of life of a solar-like object. Thanks to the motion of all these different stars on the essential star.
And that generated the paper.
Brendan: Improbable, so that picture that the public noticed, did you and your groups dig into that myriad information and use the completely different wavelengths and tease it out and pull it aside to discover all that basic element for your paper?
Orsola: Sure, so we actually took every thing that was accessible and pulled it aside. in the sense, for instance, with the mud, it’s not sufficient to say, “Oh, look, it’s reds due to this fact the mud.” There’s tons of information, completely different wavebands, and that distinction between the completely different wavebands tells you the temperature of the mud, for instance, which not directly, given, you know, the temperature of the star round which the mud is … tells you the place the mud is. So it tells you, for instance, the dimension of the disk. So there’s tons of info that you glean from having extra than one image proper? So from having tons of information … when your spectra is even higher in this case … there wasn’t but something however simply having MIRI and the different instrument (I overlook the identify) and their bands was very very influential to the discovery.
Brendan: Ah thank you …. okay proper now may be a good time to have a look at one of your ARC initiatives. You’re working on that. And it seems like you’ve talked about mud simply earlier than.
It seems like together with mud in the fashions that predict the behaviour, cataclysmic explosions when varied sorts of stars collide.
Now, we know that we’re made of stardust. Thank you, Carl Sagan. Each atom in our physique is Stardust created in stellar explosions.
Might you inform us a bit about the mud that you need to embrace in your fashions? The title of your challenge begins … this is the ARC challenge … “Dusty Fashions of Stellar Outburst.”
Now, who’s in your group? What are you doing in this challenge? It’s proper there in the title, however can you give us a bit of element about the methodology that you’re going to use and principally, how’s it going?
Orsola: It’s a great query. So first of all, I suppose we ought to inform me what the ARC is.
So the Australian Analysis Council awards cash … It’s not a lot of cash. It’s like a challenge -based cash … For concepts or for single initiatives. So you suggest at some level in the 12 months, if you’re comfortable with it, they give you the cash and then often you can rent one particular person to carry the brunt of the challenge with you as in the lead CA being the Chief Advisor.
So the group at the second as myself and the particular person who’s a postdoc, his identify is Luis Bermudez, is sadly not right here at this convention and I will be speaking about some of the outcomes he’s produced. The different two individuals individuals are a researcher from the Free College of Brussels in Belgium…
to be continued
