From Earth orbit to the Moon and Mars, discover the world of human spaceflight with NASA every week on the official podcast of the Johnson House Heart in Houston, Texas. Take heed to in-depth conversations with the astronauts, scientists and engineers who make it potential.
On episode 382, an skilled commentator of greater than 80 shuttle flights shares classes of communications and management forward of his retirement. This episode was recorded March 14, 2025.
Transcript
Gary Jordan
Houston, now we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson House Heart, episode 382, that is Mission Management Houston. I’m Gary Jordan, and I’ll be your host right this moment. On this podcast, we carry within the consultants, scientists, engineers, astronauts and communicators, all to let you recognize what’s happening on this planet of human area flight and extra. I’ve a fairly enjoyable job. Day by day, I get to work with among the smartest and onerous working folks, serving to to digest all of the work that they do and share it with the world. Communications has all the time been a ardour of mine, an exquisite mix that mixes confirmed methods with creativity. Once I first got here to NASA and began my profession, I got here in excited and desirous to introduce new digital and social methods to the company’s communication portfolio, an unsurprising drive for a millennial, younger and impressive I had an thought of what the company wanted, particularly to achieve youthful audiences, however in a short time, I used to be humbled by the tenured communications professionals that had been right here for many years, and at their core, understood what it means to be a communicator within the authorities and what they deemed should be the driving forces in our messaging. I’ve been fortunate to have had many mentors in my profession. The one who has all the time stood out has been my boss, James Hartsfield, beginning his profession on the NASA Johnson House Heart in 1988 after humble begin as a newspaper reporter, James has been part of among the most important moments in human area flight and Johnson historical past. An skilled commentator of greater than 80 shuttle flights, a lead public affairs officer, or PAO, for the Worldwide House Station throughout its first missions, lead shuttle PAO through the Columbia accident and return to flight, and a supervisor for many years. I and lots of PAOs have realized an incredible deal from him, and after 37 years with the federal authorities, James has not too long ago introduced his properly deserved retirement. Earlier than his final day within the workplace, I wished to drag him into the studio for one final dialog, to take us via his profession and seize for this viewers, the core tenets for NASA communications. Right here is the director of Johnson’s Workplace of Communications, James Hartsfield, earlier than his retirement. Take pleasure in.
Gary Jordan
James Hartsfield, thanks a lot for approaching. Houston, now we have a podcast.
James Hartsfield
Hey, it’s nice to be right here. Gary, I recognize it. Excited for the chance, and recognize the curiosity.
Gary Jordan
You already know, as I believe it’s lengthy overdue. You have been truly essential to permitting us to begin this podcast manner again within the day, I keep in mind you asking me to place collectively a pitch.
James Hartsfield
Nicely I do, I imply, and so we’ll go to that story, proper? You already know, you got here in full of fireside, saying, let’s do a podcast. And this was again podcasts have been a lot youthful then than they’re now, proper? And I’ll admit, I used to be not a podcast listener, I used to be not a fan. And I assumed, podcast Yeah, and we didn’t actually have the sources for it, proper? It was going to come back out of our pores and skin, so to talk. And and so I did. I listened to you, however then I stated, Nicely, go show to me why it’s worthwhile. And darn in case you didn’t go off and did some superior analysis that confirmed the developments that podcasts have been having at the moment a lot smaller than they have been now. However, however the developments have been steep, proper? The rise in curiosity was simply nearly vertical. And and also you satisfied me, proper?
Gary Jordan
I believe it’s value it. Right here we’re nearly Developing on eight years now, so it’s closely due to you, and I’m actually excited to have you ever on James, since you are about to go on a properly deserved retirement 37 years with the federal government. Congratulations, James. It’s bittersweet, combined feelings for me, and I believe a number of people within the workplace who’ve realized a lot from you, and I’m glad to have you ever on to have fun that and to undergo your story. I wished to carry you on to essentially have you ever describe among the classes that you just’ve been instructing me via the years and seize them for the viewers, however to raised go to you recognize what these values are and what they imply, I believe it actually is smart to return to your roots and observe your journey to NASA and actually, particularly the early years, to search out out what You have got realized and what you’ve gotten retained that you’ve got dropped at the workforce right this moment, among the stuff you’re sharing with us and ensuring that our core to how we do our job. James, you grew up in Texas, proper?
James Hartsfield
Yeah, yeah. Waxahachie is the identify of the city. It’s and naturally, 65 years in the past, it was so much smaller than it’s now. Is a really a lot a small city, idyllic, actually. I imply, had the barber store on this courthouse sq.. It was, it might have been out of a TV present. Actually, they filmed a number of TV exhibits there, on and off, as a result of it appears to be like a lot like Mayberry, I believe. However it was an incredible, it was an incredible childhood, proper? I lived on the identical road for 18 years, very, very small city.
Gary Jordan
Did you? Did you do some writing as a child? Or, like, the place did, the place did that zeal? As a result of I do know you have been actually keen about writing sooner or later.
James Hartsfield
It didn’t. I discovered that zeal later fascinating at school, proper? So, you recognize, my mother was an English trainer at one level, however, however she was a keep at house mother for the time that I used to be at house, proper? However she had taught English earlier, so she definitely made sure that we pronounce issues accurately, and after we did papers, you recognize, she had that entire English exercise. My dad was a choose, so I truly spent extra publicity in my youth to issues related to the courthouse, proper? I’d, I’d do a component time job of placing in pocket components. They have been known as in regulation books on the time within the regulation library, and receives a commission for it. So wow, spend a number of time across the courthouse, truly, greater than writing.
Gary Jordan
Nicely when did writing begin changing into extra of a ardour to the truth that you wished to pursue it.
James Hartsfield
In order that’s, that’s just a little little bit of a narrative. And, and I suppose that is fascinating. I inform this one to interns proper of how my, my path bought to NASA. So I’ll simply, I’ll simply return to the sq.. One is, you recognize, I left once I graduated from highschool. I went to Waco to go to highschool at Baylor. Nice alternative to go there and and once I bought to Baylor, I used to be a horrible scholar, you recognize, not likely, not. I’ll say, you recognize, in my very own behalf, that it was not due to an absence of potential to be an incredible scholar. It was as a result of I didn’t apply myself, proper? I used to be, I used to be a extremely social animal, actually. And and so I didn’t go to class a lot. I did make some nice mates. And so after, after just a few semesters, a few semesters, the college truly expelled me. And so I used to be out of faculty, and my dad and mom instructed me to not come house, you recognize, wow, and form of disowned me. They have been dissatisfied, which they’d a proper to be. I’m nonetheless just a little ashamed of that interval of my life, proper? Possibly a number of disgrace, however, however, um, anyway, I used to be out of college for nearly a 12 months, working at all types of strange jobs, pawn outlets, concession stands, fuel stations, dwelling largely by the grace of my mates that I’d made there and partly ravenous, this type of factor, and after which I my, this was earlier than interventions have been most likely a factor, nevertheless it was form of a casual intervention. Possibly my mates had I simply ended up waking up, and a number of other of them have been round. Simply because they have been round. They weren’t there for me, however, however, you recognize, they began laying into me fairly heavy about how I used to be losing away my life and that I might do higher issues with it, and and these guys have been very social animals, too, however they’d the flexibility, like my finest buddy from faculty has a doctorate in physics now, he may very well be social to the hilt, but nonetheless do quantum mechanics IV and make an A you recognize, not me. I used to be not that particular person. I needed to I couldn’t multitask in that manner. It was both college or one thing else. And they also satisfied me to attempt to return to highschool. So I went again to the college and to the Dean of Scholar Affairs and arrange a time to satisfy with him, and I, I begged him to let me again in. They usually did surprisingly, which, I need to say, I didn’t deserve that second likelihood. And I don’t suppose colleges right this moment, sadly, can can provide that second likelihood a lot. I, I’m an enormous believer in second probabilities due to that, after which I hitch hiked house to my dad and mom as a result of I didn’t have any car or something then, and confirmed up on shock with them, and spent an actual lengthy weekend attempting to persuade him to to present me some help, which they did. It wasn’t what they gave me at first, proper? However they they did help me going again to some extent. And so then I went again to highschool, however, however I believe one of many causes additionally that I didn’t do properly once I first went to highschool was I used to be pre regulation, as a result of I used to be going to be in pre regulation. I’ve been uncovered to the regulation stuff earlier than, nevertheless it didn’t actually curiosity me. I didn’t need to be in regulation. I simply didn’t need to. I used to be acquainted with it sufficient that I form of guess I knew I didn’t need to do it, however I nonetheless had carried out that. However once I went again into college to begin over, a buddy of mine stated, “Hey, journalism. That looks like it would fit your needs. You must attempt journalism.” And so I did. And man, it clicked. You already know, I beloved the whole lot about it. I beloved attempting to suppose with my eyes, simply trying round in my ears and see that may very well be a narrative, fascinated with that’s an fascinating factor. You already know, you could possibly go, I’d like to search out out extra about that and see what I might inform folks. I beloved interviewing folks. I beloved sitting there and speaking to them and bringing out their. I imagine that that’s that adage that claims each particular person is a narrative. I completely imagine in that there’s each single particular person is a narrative, proper? And I like that. I beloved going out and speaking to folks and pulling out, was it? After which I like taking the clean sheet of paper and determining how you can inform that story in a manner that may be compelling to folks. It simply actually clicked with me. And in order that definitely ignited me to do higher at school and to make it via. In order that’s the place my ardour for journalism got here from, proper? It was the tip of a buddy who, I assume, noticed and stated, you recognize, you may click on at this, yeah, and
Gary Jordan
it’s one thing that perhaps wasn’t that one thing you grew up with, however while you while you stumbled upon it, it was one thing that actually
James Hartsfield
SO, you recognize, I stumbled upon communications later, proper? Not, not that the primary, however I assume in hindsight, I want I had discovered it earlier. It may need saved my dad and mom a number of grief and saved me a number of time that that was fairly wasted, proper? So, however I believe it’s, it’s important to your success academically, that you just be finding out one thing that you’ve got a ardour for. I believe that’s important, perhaps to your work life too. It is advisable to have a ardour for it.
Gary Jordan
Very true and it’s truly an enormous cause that this I take pleasure in this podcast a lot as a number of the company that I sit throughout from exude that very same stage of ardour for something that they’re doing in any self-discipline, they actually have discovered one thing that they love. And so that you discovered it, and after faculty, ended up pursuing a profession as a journalist, I believe you selected Galveston. Was your first cease or did you’ve gotten a cease earlier than that?
James Hartsfield
Selected Galveston, that that’s one approach to put it. So, so what actually occurred is I, I did do higher at school, however I nonetheless had that report. And naturally, issues, this was a time and age earlier than an web, earlier than cell telephones, earlier than something, proper? This was the analog world, and so I despatched out tons of resumes, as a result of I did do properly my final couple of years, proper? And in search of jobs throughout, no success. It will get to the purpose the place I’ve to sublease my condo as a result of I’m broke and I’ve bought a level, however I don’t have any cash, and I’m sleeping on the sofa. That was I sublet it in order that I might sleep on the sofa till I discovered a job. After which the months are going by and it’s, it’s late summer time and and I stated, Nicely, I can’t, can’t keep right here, you recognize, I gotta go someplace. I can’t go house, not going to go house. And I stated, Nicely, I just like the seaside, you recognize, I’ve all the time, I’ve all the time, my dad and mom used to come back trip in Galveston and and we beloved the seaside. At all times beloved the Texas. I like Texas, beloved the seaside. Didn’t need to exit of Texas. So I stated, I’ll drive all the way down to Galveston and I’ll begin there, and I’ll work my manner south. And if I get to Brownsville, Padre Island, I’ve not discovered a job in communications, in my area, then I’ll simply begin ready tables and and make a dwelling someplace, doing one thing, proper? I can’t, can’t, I bought to go on do one thing. And so I drive all the way down to Galveston and and I decide up the newspaper, and there’s a labeled advert for a reporter at one in every of their smaller papers. They owned a sequence of papers right here within the space, for a reporter photographer at one in every of their papers. And I utilized the following day, bought interviewed the following day, and so they instructed me to maneuver down there inside three days and begin in order that’s that’s how I selected Galveston. I may need simply ended up in Galveston, as a result of it’s the place interstate 45 ends, proper. Drive any additional, however, nevertheless it was an incredible place, and it was an exquisite factor. And I did take pleasure in I all the time figured, properly, if I used to be going to be grime poor, I’d as properly be grime poor in a spot that I like, you recognize,
Gary Jordan
and did you prefer it? What was your expertise like in Galveston?
James Hartsfield
I did like it. One factor is, while you begin out that manner for a small paper, you’re working, you recognize, 100 hours every week and 7 days every week, and I used to be reporter photographer. So I’d shoot, actually, lots of and lots of of images, and I’d go at midnight room and develop them, after which I’d write tales, lay out the paper, do, the whole lot it was, it was a weekly proper? And I’d work a few days on the mainland, after which a few days on the Galveston Facility on the island, however the time that I had, nevertheless it was good, and it was nice those who I labored with there. I beloved being on the seaside. I beloved having fun with that. And so, yeah, it was an incredible expertise. And truly, oddly, there was a number of actually nationwide information occasions that occurred whereas I used to be there. There was a hurricane, Oh, wow. There was a extremely tragic incident with the coach of the soccer crew for town I used to be working in simply on the eve of the championship and there was an enormous to do about legalizing racing within the space, which was an enormous vote. So there was, there was some stuff that attracted a number of nationwide consideration whereas I used to be there, which was gave me a possibility to put in writing and canopy issues,
Gary Jordan
and it should have given you some publicity, proper? Are you able to discuss how your expertise in Galveston ultimately. Led to the NASA risk.
James Hartsfield
so I did. I did get some honors whereas we have been there, proper? It was a small paper, so, you recognize, however in its class, proper? It gained finest within the state and and I had a few writing awards that I bought for columns that I wrote on the time. However you recognize, what actually led me to NASA was I had moved up from being reporter to repeat editor, then to managing editor, and I used to be in search of one other place to go. I additionally noticed the newspaper enterprise, which I beloved dearly, taking a flip proper. It was not aggressive any longer. All of the cities have been going to at least one newspaper cities. You already know, there was not the plethora of media sources that exist now, proper with the web and social media. And I, I noticed that really there have been some reporters even working there that I beloved. They have been my position fashions as a result of they’d been there 20, 30 years. That they had each supply in that city, proper in Galveston, if one thing occurred, they’d a supply, they’d a supply, they may go discover out the news about what it’s like a TV present. And I stated, Man, these are the stuff you need to do. That is what it’s on this enterprise. And lo and behold, the brand new administration got here in and fired all of them as a result of they’d the very best salaries and since there was no in case you have been going to promote, you needed to promote in that paper anyway. So the editorial high quality wasn’t essentially one thing that mattered so much, not that it went completely downhill, as a result of I did hold youthful folks, however, however these guys I favored anyway, I stated, Possibly I ought to go searching. And about that very same time, the Challenger accident occurred, and I had not I knew there was an area shuttle Gary, however I used to be form of via that entire factor that I talked about in faculty. I wasn’t listening to just like the shuttle’s first launch. I don’t know that I ever even watched a shuttle mission. I may need seen a information clip about it, however I knew what it was, and I nonetheless keep in mind the day, I used to be on my manner out to cowl air pollution within the bio story there had been a fish killer, so I used to be driving out within the boonies to go do this, and the radios enjoying rock music music, and so they by no means do that. They lower into the center of the music, and so they go, Wow, the area shuttle Challenger simply exploded, you recognize? And I’m going, Whoa, that’s that doesn’t occur, and that’s huge information, and this type of factor. And at any fee, I got here as much as the Johnson House Heart, which I’d solely been to as soon as earlier than once I was like 9 years outdated, as a result of Apollo was happening, and my dad and mom had come right here to take us on a tour, and I coated for the paper as a photographer Reagan’s memorial service for challenger out on the quad right here. After which I I assumed to myself after they stated, properly, they bought a fairly large public affairs workplace, so perhaps, perhaps that’s a spot I might I didn’t need to depart the seaside. That was primary. That was the primary driver. Possibly I’ll have a look at it there and and so I known as up the Public Affairs Workplace and a few people in it, and I stated, Hey, I’m with the paper down right here. I need to do a profile on you. What it’s prefer to work at NASA, you recognize, I need to interview you. I lied, and I arrange an appointment with my time to come back do this, and so they, they badged me, and I got here in to try this. And I got here in and I I threw my stuff down on the desk. I had all my clippings, my footage, the whole lot that I’d carried out, and I stated, Okay, properly, the reality is, I’m right here in search of a job, you recognize, and so they didn’t throw me out, which was, which was superb, proper? And the those who I have been I used to be speaking to, and I didn’t realize it on the time, have been Doug Ward and Jack Riley, two of the voices from Apollo 11, proper? You already know, Doug did the time that they have been on the moon, and Jack did launch ascent from Houston. However we talked for an hour. They have been very . So it was, it was a extremely good interview. Then it’s an extended story right here, however I’ll inform you. Then they stated to me on the finish, they stated, Nicely, you recognize, we don’t have a gap proper now, however in case you’ll go over to this different constructing throughout the best way and fill out this way, you then’ll be in our system, and if now we have a gap, we are able to name you. So I went over to the constructing, I bought the shape, and I used to be a really cynical newspaper reporter particular person on the time, proper? And the shape, no kidding, I’d by no means seen something prefer it. It was six ft lengthy, accordion, high type, each side. Advised the folks, I stated, Nicely, okay, gotta take this house, you recognize, to fill out, yeah. And I’m driving house in my beat up, $400 automobile with no air con. The home windows all rolled down, down the Gulf freeway, and I bought that type sitting within the passenger seat. It’s flapping within the breeze, and I’m considering to myself, Oh, yeah, I’m gonna put you in my system. Put you in there, no matter, blah, blah, blah, and I simply chunked it out the window. So what? Put me in your system. Thanks very a lot. However then a few months later, I get a name from Jack Riley, who stated, Hey, nonetheless bought your resume right here, however you by no means stuffed out that type, and we bought a gap. Now, and we wished to consider hiring you, however you by no means stuffed out the shape, so we are able to’t even do it. So I hooked it again up right here, and I stuffed out the shape, after which they employed me. So it’s, I don’t suppose that’s a it’s form of a second likelihood story too, proper? And I don’t suppose that may occur right this moment. Sadly, I believe my historical past leads me to the idea that the world wants to offer second probabilities for folks generally, as a result of generally they work out, yeah, second
Gary Jordan
Yeah, second probabilities and just a little little bit of luck and good timing, as a result of they have been in search of for somebody. However you recognize, I believe that perhaps they reached out to you as a result of they noticed your work at Galveston, and also you talked about this actually briefly, however, you recognize, you began, you have been working actually onerous, and also you have been rising via the ranks. What was that pursuit that helped you to have that drive to,
James Hartsfield
You already know, via I used to be fortunate, proper? I used to be for some cause, and perhaps it was the fervour for it, or no matter, and I can’t inform you why, proper? I I might write. I might write fairly properly, proper? I used to be not going to be a novelist, the following nice novelist, proper? However I might flip phrase sufficient to make dwelling at I figured that out fairly fast in faculty, you recognize, and, and I believe that’s what was enticing to Jack and Doug. They wished author, and I nonetheless keep in mind too, they, they once they instructed me they wished to rent me, I got here again in and so they stated, and I instructed them, I stated, you recognize, however I don’t know something about aerospace. I’ve by no means carried out something with area, you recognize. I cowl police beat, metropolis council, I write tales in regards to the native barber, you recognize, I write options, however I don’t do something with area. I don’t know something about that. They usually stated, that’s good, as a result of that’s what we wish. As a result of in case you are available in and also you write one thing about area, you’ll write it in a manner that any person who is aware of nothing about area will perceive, and that that was very true.
Gary Jordan
Very true. Yeah, yeah. Even this can be a, that is type of a mantra that I keep in mind you telling me once I was studying how you can do commentary, is do commentary such as you’re attempting to explain it to your mother. Completely.
James Hartsfield
Completely, that’s who I all the time used, proper? As a result of he was an English trainer, too, so I needed to pronounce accurately once I was doing it, however, however, sure, it’s true, and it turns into an enemy of you, as you properly know, as you prolong your time right here, you be taught extra about area and it’s it’s useful. It’s not significantly useful that while you’re attempting to proceed to journey it in a great way, as a result of I’ve all the time been to the idea too, from my expertise right here at NASA. You already know, transparency is vital, proper? And it’s vital for a pair causes, as a result of we’re supported by the taxpayers, so we have to inform them what we’re doing, proper? There’s simply no two methods round that, and we have to attempt to clarify to them why we’re spending their cash on what we’re spending on. However it’s additionally that, you recognize, in case you can simply get folks to grasp the challenges concerned the sting of expertise that NASA works on the fringe of human functionality, they are going to perceive why it’s costly, they’ll perceive why it takes a while. They’ll perceive why generally you fail. You already know, it’s, it’s all about explaining to them, in a manner, they that folks can perceive how, how unbelievably troublesome it’s to realize.
Gary Jordan
So that you introduced that mentality to the NASA newsroom within the late 80s. That is, as you described. This was after the Challenger accident, a really fascinating time in NASA’s historical past. Are you able to type of paint an image, even via the hiring course of, the way you described how NASA was and the way public affairs was, it appears very completely different from how it’s right this moment, however describe the tradition like what was, what was NASA like in late 80s, early 90s? So
James Hartsfield
So I imply, I’ll say on this, this most likely helped form who I’m right here, and what I’ve carried out, it undoubtedly did is, you recognize, Challenger, and it’s been famous so much in communication research, NASA’s response to Challenger was, was not good. It form of shut the doorways. It didn’t actually launch info. I don’t suppose that was the fault of some actually good those who have been in communications right here on the time. It was extra administration and different issues that simply had that occur, proper, in order that NASA was not open. And the end result was very extreme on NASA, proper? As a result of there was no once I got here in, there was a big turnover in communications, as a result of it was simply so horrendous after that, for an individual of years, a communications particular person, which is among the issues that allowed me to get employed, nevertheless it drove house to me the significance of transparency and of attempting to take care of that and be, be, be upfront with issues that occur always. Know-how smart, you recognize, evaluating the media world of the Nineteen Eighties to the media world right this moment is sort of not possible. The large technological miracle that everybody within the NASA newsroom was speaking about on the time I walked within the door was the fax machine. As a result of now they didn’t should drive information releases downtown to present them to newspapers or put them on a teletop machine. They may simply hit one button and it will ship the papers all around the nation, you recognize, and and it was like. It skinny air, like a transporter beam, you recognize, and and there was, you recognize, it was nothing like right this moment, and the media that we handled have been nothing like right this moment. They weren’t as many sources, proper? It’s a way more advanced and difficult media setting. They rather more blessed with a number of nice expertise that makes issues completely different however but in addition rather more sophisticated. I believe the fundamental tenets, although, all the time stay the identical, proper? What human beings are concerned about doesn’t actually change, for my part. You already know, there are specific issues that curiosity and usually it’s different people, proper? However what persons are concerned about is a continuing, how one can describe that to folks is a variable always. And that’s one of many issues I all the time love about communications. We work with rocket scientists who love math. My my finest buddy in faculty, like I stated, bought a doctorate in physics. You already know, he was, he beloved math. I form of have a look at communication just a little bit like math, in that, if I might provide you with the that, if I might provide you with the proper mixture of photographs or phrases, you recognize, multimedia, you possibly can truly translate what one particular person is feeling in whole to a different particular person. You already know, you possibly can, you possibly can truly transmit that, which to me, is superb. And truly, I’d inform you it’s a lot tougher than math, as a result of math solely has one approach to transmit an thought from one particular person to a different, however there’s most likely 1000 alternative ways, and it’s onerous to know which is healthier in communications.
Gary Jordan
You already know, as you introduced your retirement, we had colleagues that have been throwing pulling up a few of your outdated works, and you recognize, among the roundup articles, among the tales, they have been superior. They have been superior, James, nevertheless it was, it was, you recognize, it was, it was fascinating seeing the roundup publication from these occasions. And that is roundup for our audiences, our inner communications platform. It has modified over time, however on the time, it was like an inner paper.
James Hartsfield
It’s the place I first began. Yeah, and one of many tenants from the Rogers Fee that was the investigation of the Challenger accident was to extend inner communications throughout the company. And it’s not like there’s emails to try this with again in these days. The best way to try this was a tough copy paper that was produced. And so what they wished to do was take that to be a extra frequent paper, and I used to be employed to assist make that occur.
Gary Jordan
So, yeah, you have been writing. It was nearly like a newspaper store for the NASA neighborhood.
James Hartsfield
And it was an exquisite expertise for any person who got here in right here and didn’t know something about NASA. I had free rein to go discover issues to put in writing about, and I had free rein to say, Okay, I believe I need to go speak to that particular person and interview them and discover out what they do and why they do it. And, you recognize, for me, that was like the very best reward card on this planet.
Gary Jordan
Nicely, can are you able to speak extra about that directive, about speaking extra internally? I believe you talked about just a little little bit of how the communications for Challenger and submit Challenger was not precisely the proper factor to do. And we, you recognize, you took a few of these classes to issues later in your profession. However what have been among the reactions to saying, Hey, we like, you recognize, why do we have to speak extra internally?
James Hartsfield
I believe it was as a result of, you recognize, and I wasn’t right here on the precise, I used to be a newspaper report on the time of the accident, proper? So I wasn’t truly right here throughout it, however, however the aftermath, once I got here to to into the into the NASA household, proper? It was the method being that if we, if we are able to inform one another what we’re engaged on, extra, we really feel extra that we are able to confide one another higher. You already know, communications builds belief with folks, proper, proper? It will probably construct confidence, nevertheless it actually most significantly, I believe what it builds the whole lot is belief with folks and the flexibility to confide and to be protected. It’s important to have absolute belief,
Gary Jordan
very, very true. And security is even right this moment, such an enormous a part of our tradition, and we are able to get into that too as we undergo among the defining moments in your profession, however form of going via it, you recognize, you talked about roundup as one in every of your first assignments. In some unspecified time in the future, you began taking over commentary assignments. And early in your profession you’ve gotten, you recognize, very fascinating issues that you just have been working there was, there was so much occurring in human area flight on the time
James Hartsfield
I did, properly, the primary huge factor, proper? And the factor that, once I bought right here, all people was working towards, as a result of we had been down from plying the shuttle since challenger, for greater than two years, was STS 26 this primary shuttle mission after Challenger, the return to flight. And in order that was thrilling, proper? And as thrilling for me I used to be engaged on the roundup. However when a mission comes up, similar to right this moment, the entire workplace helps the mission. Doesn’t matter what your regular job is, you’re supporting that mission. So I used to be tremendous excited to be supporting STS 26 and that mission the primary flight after Challenger. Had been writing about preparations for it within the roundup for some time, and I bought assigned to work within the newsroom. On the on the graveyard shift, the midnight shift. And in these days, I’ll inform you, too, is a distinct world. On masking the missions and masking something, proper? There was not a great way to distant cowl. So we had reporters that may come right here and be right here 24/7 and I imply lots of of reporters. Wow. And also you, you recognize, I don’t suppose your listeners are pricing the Teague auditorium space, nevertheless it’s an enormous constructing. All of the foyer, all of the facet partitions can be stuffed with tables that we’ve arrange for media, and they’d have, you recognize, televisions on them, and so I might see the feed of Mission Management. And we had press conferences each 9 hours. Each time a shift modified in mission management, they have been all the time properly attended. It was only a completely different world. So I used to be working the graveyard shift within the newsroom, tremendous excited. Loopy story was I used to be so excited that they gave us a time without work, which I by no means have given you, to shift over, to shift over their circadian rhythm and prepare for the midnight shift. And so I stated, What is going to I do for that? So, okay, I used to be dwelling in Galveston. I stated, You already know what? I began getting drained at like, 2am I stated, I’m gonna go journey the ferry forwards and backwards, the Bolivar ferry, as a result of, you recognize, they wake you. You’ll be able to’t go to sleep. It’s important to get up each 25 minutes to get off the ferry and get again on. You already know? I did that until dawn, you recognize, after which I couldn’t sleep, after which I got here in and labored my midnight shift, when it was horrible, however, however, however nonetheless, it was excited, how thrilling it was. And for that, and to be in that center of a what was actually a worldwide highlight for me, you recognize, and and simply the pleasure of returning to flight, as a result of I’ll offer you this theme via our speak right here is that drove house to me, to the factor that makes folks love NASA. It’s, it’s, it’s the failure is an choice for NASA. We failed so much. There’s, there’s tons of failures that that punctuate our historical past. However we by no means hand over. We persevere. So issues just like the return to flight after Challenger is an emblem of perseverance that I believe evokes folks greater than anything NASA does, the truth that we don’t stop, that we are going to go and check out which it’s not us, it’s the taxpayers that say we don’t stop, they help us to attempt once more. However that that drove that lesson house to me when it comes to commentary. So so I used to be fairly good within the newsroom, I assume, in order that the managers noticed that I might deal with myself properly with media. So they stunning shortly moved me from doing roundup then to doing regular Public Affairs task, supporting issues engineering at first, however then the orbiter workplace, after which for a lot of my time. I, I went forwards and backwards on supporting shuttle for just a few years, after which off supporting them, again to supporting shuttle program as the first spokesperson right here. Commentary, clearly, very thrilling factor. And I we went into coaching for it. Then an exquisite alternative for coaching the place we utilized labeled missions on the area shuttle. And so for a labeled mission, we staffed them with public affairs officers, commentators, as a result of although we didn’t do any commentary, we couldn’t launch any info. However our settlement was that if there was one thing that threatened security of the mission, we’d come up full bore with with the protection straight away, on the spot. So that you needed to have any person in there prepared to try this, if that was okay. However it gave you the chance to go in and research how Mission Management works, research how the shuttle flies, hearken to all that with out having to really carry out, you recognize. So these have been nice alternatives. That was my first experiences in Mission Management. Really, oddly, my first time ever going to the management heart was with Steve Nesbitt, who was the commentator for challenger, and who additionally was going to the commentator for STS 26 to go to an asset entry stem. He invited me to come back into a kind of early morning and for STS 26 and I used to be just about spellbound from that second on with the management heart. However you recognize, a few of my first missions, I’d say my first huge mission was STS 37 Gamma Ray Observatory. I wasn’t launch and touchdown commentator for that one, however I used to be on the orbit shift, and it was going to be the primary area stroll after Challenger that gotten rather more cautious and reserved on issues, cautious in a great way. NASA after Challenger, it was going to be the primary spacewalk. It turned out, although, that as we have been deploying that observatory, the antenna was caught. So that they needed to do an unplanned area stroll. So straight away, I used to be off into, you recognize, off nominal operations and work in that area stroll. In order that was an thrilling approach to begin. Wow, and that, you recognize, on launch and touchdown, I’d say my first mission there was STS 44 it was a Division of Protection labeled flight. I believe I ended up doing one thing like 14 or 15 launches and landings over time, which will be the most anyone did from Houston for shuttle. Might be a tie. I. Didn’t, I didn’t talked it up with all people, however, nevertheless it was so much and a privilege to do the whole lot there. However I’ll say on that one, as I talked about that you just need to, in case you can simply clarify to folks the problem that’s concerned with NASA, then they’ll get it, you recognize, they’ll perceive why, why it takes what it takes to do it. And so one of many issues on that flight that I made a decision to do going into it, this was within the outdated management room and and we bought shows that have been in engineering models, so all the rate was in ft per second. That’s what you noticed, ft per second I used to be, I used to be a child from the seaside in Waxahachie. I didn’t know what ft per second was that you could possibly inform me that I used to be going 10 ft per second, and I wouldn’t. I’d have thought it was 30 miles an hour or one mile an hour. I didn’t know, you recognize, however I assumed, however I did be taught in being at NASA that entering into area shouldn’t be about going up. It’s about going quick. That’s that’s all that issues. It’s pace. You already know, one of many coolest issues about it’s it’s all about pace, proper? For those who might go 10 occasions the rate of a rifle bullet at floor stage, with out hitting one thing or with out burning up the ambiance, you could possibly be in orbit, proper? It’s simply all about attending to that pace. And so I assumed that was vital to speak about and paint that image on a tablet. So I made up a chart that translated each 100 miles per hour, ft per second to miles per hour. And I went in to name the launch that manner, which was the primary time, truthfully, it ever been used miles per hour and calling a launch. And, you recognize, I’m a stickler for that. Now attempt to push that. We do this I perceive, however I’ll say, you recognize, then I began calling it out in miles per hour. In a while, in 1994 after we moved management rooms from the outdated management room to the brand new mission, management had an opportunity to construct precise shows that learn it out actual time for you in miles per hour in addition to different models. However I put these in there, and that was nice. And I’ll inform you sooner or later I used to be going house, I don’t know which launch it was I used to be driving house from after doing a launch, and I hear the DJ on the radio come up and say, and he performs a clip. It was me doing any and it’s going, you recognize, Atlantis is now touring, you recognize, 10,000 miles per hour, and he goes, that’s actually reserving. And I stated, I stated, Sure, you recognize it’s working. Individuals get it, yeah, yeah, so, and I don’t suppose, I assume imitation is flattered. It was by no means known as out once more throughout shuttle in ft per second. I don’t suppose so.
Gary Jordan
It was all the time miles per hour after that,
James Hartsfield
yeah, all people began utilizing that after that. Very cool, nevertheless it was these form of issues. I simply suppose, in case you can, in case you can clarify to those who issue of accelerating an individual to that pace via the temperatures, after which much more so, decelerating them to zero once more and holding the whole lot as light as extra light than perhaps a curler coaster is, you recognize, that’s it’s the sting of expertise to try this.
Gary Jordan
You’re constructing these connections with audiences to assist them, to carry them into NASA communicate and have them perceive it and and recognize it. And that goes a good distance. You’re in contrast you. You’re taking your writing abilities, you’re taking your storytelling abilities, and also you turn out to be this powerhouse. It was due to this. You bought to be a part of some large moments, proper? You inform you, instructed me about this Mars meteorite ALH84001, And the way you have been approached to put in writing the story for this, for this essential meteorite.
James Hartsfield
Yeah, that is among the craziest and coolest, and I believe, thrilling occasions of my profession. I’ll inform you was that that story and, and I didn’t know something about Mars meteorites in any respect, proper, a number of this stuff, I used to be a clean, you recognize. And so, however, however, however Steve Nesbit was my boss on the time, and, and I believe he thought-about me a fairly good author, in order that’s why he got here down and peeked into my workplace and stated, How would you want to put in writing? Possibly crucial information launch NASA has ever written or will ever write. And I used to be going, Okay, Boss, what would you like me to do? You already know? No, I it was intriguing, proper? As a result of he didn’t speak that manner. And I stated, Positive. And he instructed me {that a} group of scientists over within the astral supplies space right here at JSC, which has the lunar rocks and likewise has meteorites from Mars, in addition to all different extraterrestrial samples that exist in it as curation and research that this group of scientists had discovered proof they thought indicated that life had existed on historic Mars. And so I went over, arrange time to go over and interview this group of parents, an incredible group of parents, Everett Gibson, Dave McKay, Kathy Thomas Caperta, simply the late Dave McKay, and, you recognize, talked to them a few occasions, proper? The primary interview was superb. I didn’t know any of this stuff. I didn’t know even that meteorites got here from Mars and landed on Earth, proper? This this meteorite had been present in Antarctica on a scientific expedition designed hunt for meteorites, as a result of that’s an incredible place to search out meteorites. Apparently, they recognized it as a Mars meteorite as a result of, and that is how they establish a number of Mars meteorites, it had pockets of fuel trapped in it. And while you analyze that fuel, humanity is aware of the precise composition of the Martian ambiance at the moment due to the Viking landers, which sampled the ambiance and instructed us precisely the way it’s composed, all the way down to the minute element you analyze the fuel trapped within the pockets that meteorite, it matches precisely. So, you recognize, it’s from Mars. I had no thought of that. That they had studied it and located parts, together with visible which have been superb. Photos to me, regarded very very like it may very well be fossils, however, however there’s been a number of scientific debate on this, so I’m not attempting to enter into that one or one other, however on the time, simply actually thrilling, as a result of they’d come to the conclusion, very logically, that essentially the most compelling proof for why all this stuff can be in such shut proximity to one another within the meteorite can be as a result of 4 billion years in the past, microorganisms had existed under the floor of Mars, the place this meteorite was then one thing had impacted Mars, blasted it unfastened. It had traveled via area for billions of years, fell in Antarctica, thousands and thousands of years in the past, been discovered about eight or 10 years earlier than this research occurred, then recognized as a Mars meteorite, after which they began finding out it and located this, and so they wished, they’d an article accepted for publication in Science Journal, which is, the top all be, all for his or her analysis to have that verified and subjected to look overview on this and so we would have liked to do one thing, to do a launch about it.
Gary Jordan
Nicely, that’s, yeah, that may undoubtedly get a number of consideration. So while you wrote that.
James Hartsfield
So it did, and in order that crew, they knew the gravity of what they have been going to do for science. Oh yeah, I truthfully don’t really feel like they knew proper off the bat how a lot consideration it will get within the mainstream world. I believe I used to be useful with that to clarify that to them, as a result of I did acknowledge straight away and, and I do know after I accomplished the interviews with them, I went house and I labored all evening, all weekend, attempting to draft a launch proper, as a result of it’s an excellent sophisticated topic, it additionally needed to be proper, and, and, and the quotes in that launch have been very clear to say that they knew that this discovering wouldn’t be accepted. What they wished to do was put this on the market for the world of scientific world to show or disprove within the coming years, which is strictly what occurred, proper? I believe there’s most likely nonetheless perhaps some debate, perhaps it’s confirmed or disproved now, however that was their intent on the time, proper? So we wrote up that launch. Needed to work very carefully with Stanford, who had been a part of the the analysis, and with with Washington, who labored with it, on it, however we bought a launch collectively, bought authorised. You already know, the top of the discharge was that NASA, NASA and Stanford science crew discover proof, compelling proof, that life could have existed on historic Mars, which to me was outstanding, whether or not it was true or not. Gary, right here’s the US authorities gonna say that I by no means recognized historical past, that the federal government had stated, Hey, life may need existed elsewhere, for certain, proper? You already know? And, and that was a outstanding milestone to me anyway, simply all of the implications that. So the discharge bought carried out and and we despatched it to Washington. I believe when it bought to Washington for overview, it instantly triggered a stir, as a result of inside 24 hours, that science crew was known as as much as the White Home to go speak with the White Home. Oh, wow, yeah. And had a gathering with with the President Clinton and Gore straight away, what’s then an entire bizarre collection of occasions transpired after that. So, however I might go into these however, however I’ll inform you so so that they did the they did that, and we had deliberate to do a press convention and announce this in a sequence a pair or three weeks later, bought all accelerated as a result of the the story from the newspapers on the time that I’m simply repeating, what newspapers on the time was it in that assembly, I. So there was an advisor to the president who, basically, afterward, had suppose was with their mistress, proper? That’s what the media stated. And had stated to the them, you need to know one thing solely six folks on this planet know. And and stated, you recognize, they discovered life on Mars. After which that particular person went to the Nationwide Enquirer to attempt to promote the story, after which it leaked, and began going loopy throughout all of the media. They have been calling NASA, the President put out an announcement in regards to the discovering, and we accelerated the the press convention as much as like, inside 24 hours, after which that loopy flip of occasions,
Gary Jordan
yeah, it ended up being a complete scramble, however you recognize, you needed to rigorously place it, as a result of I believe everybody was looking for out, wait, did NASA verify that there’s life on Mars? And also you needed to characterize it very rigorously
James Hartsfield
As a result of they didn’t. After which Dave McKay and Everett Gibson be the primary ones to inform you they weren’t confirming that. What they have been doing is saying this was what they thought was essentially the most logical conclusion. However they know very properly how science works, and science works finest when it’s carried out by the biggest group you will discover. And what they wished to do was put it on the market their their speculation to be studied by the world, proper, proper? And, and it was thrilling. I’ll say this, whether or not there’s proof of life from Mars in that meteorite or not, it created an entire lot of life on Earth.
Gary Jordan
That’s a great way to place it. You have got, you’ve gotten a number of these moments in your profession, James, the place you, you recognize you’re working onerous, you you’re you’re responding to to essential issues, issues quick, proper? You have got these moments all through your profession. One which I wished to leap to actual shortly was your expertise with the Columbia accident. This was a big one. You have been the commentator for it, and also you talked about briefly the, you recognize, the teachings realized from the Challenger accident. And I and you’ve got and have shared with our group, you recognize, your your recollection of the occasions of Columbia, however then the teachings that you just put ahead in authorities communication after an accident like that to verify we have been doing the proper factor,
James Hartsfield
certain. Nicely, I imply, just a little little bit of retrospective on Columbia. Proper? I used to be the commentator in Mission Management at the moment. And it was, you recognize, I had carried out a number of landings by that point, proper? Carried out. I’d carried out 14 or 15, I don’t know. So it was, and 1 / 4, I inform you, that is commentary. I’ll say this to commentators continuously. You’ll be able to have a number of expertise at commentary. If I see you get it’s good so that you can be assured. If I see you be snug, then which means you don’t know what you’re doing. You’re not situationally conscious. You must by no means be too snug with it, proper? Which I maintain to that for a cause, however, nevertheless it was the one issues distinctive to that in going into it. Nicely, one of many issues was that I used to be extra so of an impact to me on my work for Columbia was not doing commentary. It was truly that I used to be the first spokesperson, the first PAO for shuttle right here in Houston on the time, and I had an excellent shut relationship with the Shuttle Program Supervisor, working relationship with Ron Dittemore we had labored collectively for some time, and he was among the finest relationships I had in working carefully with folks. The mission, the touchdown. The outstanding factor about it was that it was going to come back throughout the continental US, and that didn’t occur too typically, and so it was going to be seen on a Saturday morning to folks all throughout from from coast to coast, which is spectacular, proper when the shuttle would do this, and you’ll see it descend and and, and folks would watch that. It was superb. Actually, it was going straight over Waxahachie, one of many locations that was going over. And I despatched my mother a word the evening earlier than to inform her to go exterior and watch it and and she or he stated she would undoubtedly do it. She slept in, which I’m truly, in hindsight, glad that that occurred, proper? She missed it, however, however, you recognize, I used to be conscious of the particles strike throughout ascent as a result of I seen that. I’d seen that video. It had come up as a query in a press convention. We had labored some responses on it, talked it over with with administration, however, you recognize, the conclusions on the time have been that it was not a critical incident for security of the crew, proper? So it had been put out of thoughts. You already know, after we began to listen to indications in mission management that got here straight again to thoughts for everybody working in that management room and within the commentary facet of it’s proper? It’s apply proper earlier than we go in and do a launch or touchdown for shuttle. We’ve carried out, I don’t know, numerous quantity of Sims. You already know, even with that crew, even in case you’ve carried out 14 landings earlier than. You’re going to do a ton of apply landings with that particular crew for that particular mission, and that kicks in at these occasions, proper? And and you’ve got a job to do. And much more so, there was a job to do to guard the protection of the general public on the time, as a result of, you recognize, particles had fallen over a large space of East Texas. Loads of that may be very poisonous in nitrogen tetroxide that’s used for the orbital propellants on the shuttle. You already know, only one whiff could be very, very damaging. So we would have liked to inform folks to not go close to particles they discovered. So there have been a number of issues happening that, happily, I used to be in a position to simply retain composure and get that carried out on the time. However I’ll say, you recognize, on that day, after the room was locked, after which we lastly ended the printed, I went straight to the administration crew assembly, which was proper throughout the corridor the primary one, and it was a gathering about restoration. That’s what it was about, recovering the shuttle and we, I believe the primary time it actually bought to me on that was we had stopped that assembly within the center, as a result of on the displays up within the within the room, the information was enjoying, and the President got here on to make an announcement about shedding the crew. That was an extremely somber second that that occurred. However on the similar time, I had the shuttle program coming to me saying, assist me put together for a press convention. So we had to try this and and I’ll, I’ll say, You already know what I what I talked to them about and stated was inform them the whole lot you recognize. And I additionally stated, engineers don’t need to present their feelings. I don’t suppose anyone desires to point out their feelings at a time like that, however, however I urge them to not attempt to conceal that. And I believe they did that to an incredible diploma. Ron and Milt Heflin went on to do the press convention and and so they have been very simple. And, you recognize, I do know the phrases that that Ron used was have been devastated, which couldn’t have been a greater phrase than that to make use of for it. However I that goes to the transparency proper, its transparency of what you’re feeling, what your expertise is transparency of what you recognize and what you don’t know, and that that’s what it’s essential to as a way to be credible. A minimum of on this area of interest of the world, I believe that’s what it’s essential to be credible. And in order that was that was summed upon all my studying from to the time of that proper and and I believe that first week after, after, um, Columbia, we continued that proper, with that sort of transparency. After which it at one level, the Columbia Accident Investigation Board was fashioned, and so they took over the discharge of knowledge, and so they they have been extra extra, uh, cautious about launch, as a result of they wanted to be, as a result of they have been engaged on an investigation, I believe that was understood by the media to a big diploma, nevertheless it definitely set a really completely different tone, and I’ve seen this in a number of educational research about communications from what occurred throughout Columbia than what occurred throughout challenger. So perhaps NASA realized one thing, however I’ll nonetheless inform you my most memorable facet of Columbia shouldn’t be Columbia, it’s STS 114 after we return the shuttle to flight, you recognize that that was my final shuttle commentary. Was that mission, and I wished to try this mission. I’d gotten promoted into administration within the within the midst of between Columbia and STS 114 reluctantly, we’ll speak again to that in a minute if you wish to. However, yeah, however you recognize, it was vital me to do 114 due to that perseverance facet, proper? I wished to persevere. I wished to and and I do know when STS 114 landed, because it was rolling out the runway, I I wished to say this for a 12 months and a half, two years, I considered what I used to be going to say, and I’d all the time come again to the identical actual factor, and it was simply quite simple, that Discovery is house, as a result of I didn’t get to say that for Columbia,
Gary Jordan
proper, proper. These classes, James are essential to what you’ve gotten shared with this group on transparency and the teachings of how we talk with the general public in a setting like that, and what it means, and what our core tenants are as communicators, the reality is, simply be, be clear. Present these feelings, inform them what you recognize, those self same issues that you just instructed, that you just instructed among the managers in these briefings and the way you designed a approach to inform the general public what was occurring. That’s true even right this moment. These core tenets,
James Hartsfield
I’ll say, although too to be clear, principally, if there’s occasions that NASA perhaps has not appeared clear, or somebody in NASA shouldn’t be clear. It’s not as a result of they’re attempting to cover issues from the general public. That is my expertise, is it’s not likely that. It’s it an engineer, a scientist, they need to wait until they’ve each reply nailed completely flat earlier than they go speak to anybody, proper? They don’t need to give out partial info. They don’t need to speculate. They don’t need to. However what occurs is, if generally these solutions take a very long time to get proper, and in case you don’t come out and discuss the place you might be and simply being open along with your standing, you then begin getting getting seen as hiding issues proper. And so not often have Have I ever seen in my expertise, it carried out deliberately. It when it occurs, it’s that unintentional consequence, and it’s our job to clarify to folks why they should exit and be forthcoming, and why you possibly can’t afford to attend for each reply to be good,
Gary Jordan
Although they is perhaps uncomfortable in doing so right here’s why it will be important,
James Hartsfield
and I perceive how they are often uncomfortable, nevertheless it’s you must
Gary Jordan
Yeah. Now I believe it’s a few of that drive and among the steering that you just’ve given and a few of your core beliefs and what you suppose is vital that have been possible a part of the rationale why. And also you alluded to this why, in between Columbia and the return to flight, you have been promoted to administration, and the way you described it to me was in opposition to your will.
James Hartsfield
I imply, perhaps that was why I may need simply been within the incorrect place on the incorrect time. Gary, you recognize, I’ll say I used to be all in regards to the ardour of speaking, proper, which I’ll say, you recognize, speaking, I simply so fortunate. It flips that adrenaline swap for me, proper? Whether or not it’s writing one thing, whether or not it was broadcasting one thing the place it was developing with a approach to talk, how you can persuade an engineer to be forthcoming, these all would get my adrenaline flowing as a lot as adrenaline could be flowing, proper? It will probably’t get any larger than it’s there. And it was nice that that was what I bought to do. So doing that individually was tremendous rewarding for me. I didn’t actually need to go into administration. I’d carried out just a little little bit of that on the paper earlier than I bought right here. Once I was a managing editor, I had a reporter then, and so as a substitute of me going out to cowl the cool factor, be on the sideline on the soccer recreation or one thing, I bought to assign them, and I bought to repeat it at their story when he bought again, you recognize. And that’s, that’s what was caught in my head, you recognize,
Gary Jordan
from a desk beneath a fluorescent gentle. Yeah?
James Hartsfield
So I used to be reluctant to enter it, however, however I used to be just about a battlefield promotion and drafted and, and I, I used to be form of instructed you can both go do that or we’ll know you haven’t any ambition, interval. And that was form of a supply you possibly can’t refuse, yeah, so I went into it and and, you recognize, shock it was, you recognize, in the long run, I’ll simply to get to the lead first is, you recognize, after what, 20 years now in administration and management, truly, I used to be so shocked to search out that to carry folks such as you in and to empower you to have the instruments and the sources and the arrogance and issues and the coaching that it’s essential to maximize your potential. To look at that occur is manner, far more rewarding than doing it your self. I by no means noticed that coming.
Gary Jordan
Yeah, one thing you’ve undoubtedly described to me up to now too, and in order that’s over these 20 years you’ve, in a way, had a had a big had a big half in setting up, you recognize, the workplace as it’s right this moment. You employed most people that I get to work with, and that I and that I handle,
James Hartsfield
most of them as of late weren’t born once I began working at NASA. I’ll, nevertheless it’s your self included.
Gary Jordan
Not gonna say my however, you recognize these, it’s a brand new is a brand new workplace, however, however you’re searching for. You’re searching for people with these sure qualities that that I believe have have led to, you recognize, I additionally get to work with these folks on a regular basis, and love seeing the fervour that that these people put into all of the various things that we do, and the significance that they’ve even even in among the what we could consider as as smaller beats, proper? You consider Worldwide House Station as this gargantuan factor, however there’s these lovely tales and these fantastic connections you can have simply throughout your entire crew. And so that you’ve not solely seen that, however in your in your administration tenure, have seen the entire workplace, proper? It’s not simply public affairs. We do the general public engagement. You do the stem engagement. And a number of occasions while you’re speaking about administration, you speak in regards to the workplace and the significance of communication, one of many stuff you’d describe as seeing all of the completely different components of what we do right here is among the finest stuff you’ve ever carried out,
James Hartsfield
true and really true, as a result of I did have the chance when, when the shuttle program ended, I had the chance to go to a few completely different places of work as a supervisor and form of rotate round for a few years, and every first was the. Outreach and reveals space, which I had form of recognized with it, and I had volunteered for some reveals and issues too, however I used to be all the time a media author, broadcast, mission, protection particular person. You already know? What I came upon over there was that there’s all varieties of creativity, you recognize, as a result of creativity, in the long run, I believe, is what makes us all tick on this workplace. We need to be inventive. We would like we need to train that now we have that bent inside to do. And you recognize, the methods to try this in a 3 dimensional type and reveals or an outreach in these form of issues is superb. And it’s an entire new canvas to work with, which I discovered instantly inspiring. And naturally, the crew is incredible there too, once I moved over to that so I took away a number of classes from that about not being slender minded with issues. After which schooling, you recognize what I did once I was in schooling? I used to be the supervisor of internships, fellowships and scholarships and and it was actually refreshing. What I did do is I picked a gaggle of interns that was coming in, and I met with them via their time at NASA each couple of weeks, simply to listen to how their expertise was going. And you recognize, this occurs on this workplace right this moment. I believe the lifeblood for creativity and for the shortly altering world that we stay in when it comes to the applied sciences and communication methodologies which might be used is the brand new those who come within the door, proper, as a result of they’re they’re newly uncovered to those issues. The journalism colleges truthfully aren’t instructing the issues they taught you and also you or me as of late. They train these, however they train much more, and I noticed that from a few of these experiences. So then I ended up again right here, and I used to be manner, manner higher for it.
Gary Jordan
Superb. Yeah, I keep in mind my American journalism course in faculty, was cynical on the time due to so many adjustments that have been occurring simply throughout the trade. However even with that, you recognize, you’ve gotten, such as you stated, this lifeblood of the of the brand new folks which might be right here. And you recognize, your 37 12 months profession, you’ve seen and carried out a number of issues. You’ve seen the workplace change. You’re leaving it in with the crew that now we have proper now, going into exploring moon to Mars, all of those industrial and worldwide partnerships, the panorama has modified fairly a bit. However how do you are feeling? You already know, retiring now and leaving the workplace with the crew that now we have. I imply,
James Hartsfield
I imply I’ll say, to start with, simply on bringing new folks in. You already know, NASA shouldn’t be a tough place to search out people who find themselves to work right here for, proper? That the folks it, it’s it. No one is blessed with the content material that we get to work with to be inventive. Proper? We’ve the very best content material accessible to us with the, you recognize, we’re on the chopping fringe of the whole lot humanity is doing, and you may’t beat that. The general public which have come a number of them which have come right here, you recognize, needed to come throughout the nation at their very own expense and relocate to be right here. A few of them have taken pay cuts from what they have been doing within the non-public sector, you recognize, all as a result of they’ve a ardour for working at NASA. So I’ll say, in deciding on folks although, I imply, I believe we, one of many questions I all the time prefer to ask was, why did you turn out to be concerned about communications within the first place? As a result of I believe that tells you one thing, proper? I would like, I do need folks to have that zeal and that. I would like what they do to be tripping that adrenaline swap. You already know, I believe that’s finest for everybody. So we’ve been lucky to usher in. There was an incredible crew of individuals once I walked within the door right here within the 80s, proper? They have been from Apollo, a few of them, a few of them, not a few of them have been from newer than that, by and enormous, an older crew than is the crew right here. Now we’re very younger crew right here, aside from me and however they have been excellent, however the world was so much easier, media smart, and and I’ll say that the crew right here right this moment with the assortment of abilities they’ve and the problem they’ve them. You’ve heard me say this earlier than. It’s the very best it’s ever been. There has by no means been a greater crew right here in place in at JSC to do these communications. And it’s it’s wanted, as a result of the panorama right here at JSC, once I began, there was the shuttle program and there was House Station Freedom program on the on the blueprint stage, and that was it. That was for a lot of the first 20 years of my profession, we solely had one program flying the primary 25 years of my profession. Now now we have a number of packages flying. There’s 9 packages managed at JSC, I believe now. So you recognize, it’s a way more advanced job when a a lot and also you’re referring to a way more advanced media and communications world, which, which, in the long run, is a number of alternative, proper? It’s alternative to be inventive, a number of alternative to try this. It requires the crew that we’ve bought right here, Artemis, an entire nother step, proper? I and. And I, you hear me say this so much, I believe it’s the proper folks in the proper place on the proper time. That’s all I can credit score. The crew right here being as is. It’s going to take that to go what’s forward of us proper now on the books, Moon, Mars, it’s going to take these form of issues. And I, once I look again at my profession, you recognize, I’d say, actually, perhaps the large measure shouldn’t be these moments that I had, or something like that, or that I bought to be such a privilege to be a part of. I form of got here to the conclusion of, did I’m I leaving this place higher than I discovered it? And I can 1000 occasions say to myself Sure on that query,
Gary Jordan
And I do know you imply it. I do know you imply I actually take pleasure in being right here, and I benefit from the crew, and it’s only a fantastic tradition and a really passionate group of those who places within the effort and the time to make the mission occur. Even now, on the time of this recording, now we have folks deployed to Florida and to, you recognize, completely different components of Florida, to California. They’re they’re prepared, they’re out, they’re supporting the mission, for Crew 10 launch.
James Hartsfield
I’ll say, I imply, one factor all the time sticks with me, too, is so I gained’t give names, however you recognize, there’s, and this has occurred greater than as soon as. I keep in mind a time that I needed to name any person and say, hey, you recognize, I do know it’s a vacation and also you’re gonna that is gonna mess up something you ever did, however I would like you to go work a midnight shift, fly to Timbuktu and work a midnight shift for me, supporting This with the crew communications. They usually stated, Oh, thanks. Okay, you recognize that’s, that’s, that’s the place you recognize that that they’re gonna succeed.
Gary Jordan
Yeah, you despatched me to Billings Montana. So perhaps it was you that You despatched Me to Billings Montana as a one man crew, as a result of we didn’t have the funding for a full media crew, and it was me the entire digital camera suite, and I recorded Frank Borman for for an Apollo eight anniversary all on my own. What it was an superior expertise. I used to be undoubtedly youthful in my profession. And I used to be like, Yeah, that sounds superior. An journey to Montana, and you probably did a hell of a job. Nicely, you recognize, as you 37 years, you recognize, we’ve talked about among the core values. I believe, all through the period of this podcast, we’ve talked about transparency, we’ve talked in regards to the folks, however you recognize, you’ve, you’ve, I’ve undoubtedly been witness, particularly within the in management tags now on, on why you make the choices that you just make for the workplace to do what’s finest for the workplace to do, what’s finest for NASA to do what you are feeling is vital. Now you recognize, on the finish of our recording right here, fascinated with these values, what, what has pushed you and the way you you recognize you are feeling such as you’re leaving NASA in a greater place than while you discovered it. What are these core tenants, these key values that you just suppose have to are embedded in what we do, and have to proceed being embedded in what we do.
James Hartsfield
Nicely I imply, it’s folks. Persons are your in your they’re actually your solely worth as a frontrunner, proper? And, and the important thing factor with folks is to be truthful. I believe you recognize simple to say, generally tougher to just be sure you don’t inadvertently slip up in that apply. I believe you recognize you as a frontrunner too, it’s incumbent upon you to just be sure you are doing what it’s essential to do to allow everybody to rise to their highest, most potential, and that that’s form of simpler to say, manner simpler to say, than do, proper? As a result of in case you don’t do this, it’s often not since you meant to, it’s since you inadvertently did it. It’s unconscious or one thing, otherwise you didn’t, you recognize, I believe the important thing to getting into that’s speaking with all people, proper? You bought to speak to to the folks that you just’re main. It is advisable to speak to them on a regular basis. You already know, it’s essential to have the opposite leaders in your group speaking to them after which speaking to you. You already know, in case you’re speaking you’ll, you’ll repair one thing earlier than it turns into an issue, proper? However I believe that’s a key, proper? We tremendous excessive power, tremendous devoted, tremendous inventive folks, it’s essential to be sure you’re given the autonomy that they should flourish, proper? But additionally not letting them go dive on themselves generally. So it’s, it’s, it’s tough, however communications most likely is the principle tenant proper, to speak to everybody and to be truthful, to just be sure you’re being truthful, generally it’s onerous. Generally you possibly can’t clarify absolutely to everybody the choices you make for sure causes, proper? After which then it comes all the way down to whether or not they belief that inherently you might be truthful, and there’s one thing driving you that you just simply can’t inform them for varied privateness causes, or no matter that on the crew, in order that belief is constructed via each of these tenants, I believe very, essential. And I do need to say too leaving is tough, proper? Simpler due to the crew that’s right here, but in addition it has. I don’t need anyone to suppose I’m leaving as an announcement of any sort right here. It’s robust occasions. I want the occasions have been, perhaps they’re thrilling occasions, proper? However, you recognize, this plan to depart has been in place for a few years for my spouse and I, as a result of it’s, I’d return to the perseverance assertion, proper? We bought some goals we need to go understand, you recognize, that don’t contain working at NASA, that that contain doing free time, issues an entire lot extra, and touring and, and now we have been planning to take off and go do these right now body for a number of years now, and, and, and that’s what led to this so
Gary Jordan
properly, I believe it’s properly deserved. You’ve undoubtedly made your mark on this workplace, on me. You’re an enormous half. And cause we’re sitting right here recording this podcast is since you’ve been enabler of bold younger individuals who need to attempt new issues and and, you recognize, get workforce and, you recognize, properly, I’m I and a number of others are gonna miss you. Whenever you introduced your retirement, it was lots of people had tears in that, in that, in that assembly room, since you’ve had such an influence on all people, and that’s a significant factor to know that while you announce a retirement and create such an emotional response within the folks that you just handle, and it is aware of that you just’ve made your mark so James, you deserve fantastic part three with the household. And I’m very glad that I had an opportunity proper now to speak with you about your profession and seize these classes, as a result of they’re vital to me, and I need to make it possible for they’re carried on at NASA for years to come back. So thanks, James, for the whole lot you’ve carried out.
James Hartsfield
I recognize these phrases. They’re very sort, Gary and, and the crew’s been very sort and, and I’ll be listening to the podcast. So so do properly, don’t I’ll ship you a word in case you’re screwing it up. Okay, I do know you’ll.
Gary Jordan
Thanks, James, thanks.
Thanks for sticking round. I hope you realized one thing right this moment. You’ll be able to take a look at the most recent from across the company at NASA.gov. And you will discover our full assortment of episodes and all the different fantastic NASA podcasts at nasa.gov/podcasts.
On social media we’re on the NASA Johnson House Heart pages of Fb, X and Instagram. When you have any questions for us or options for future episodes, electronic mail us at nasa-houstonpodcast@mail.nasa.gov.
This interview was recorded on March 14, 2025. Our producer is Dane Turner. Audio Engineers are Will Flato and Daniel Tohill. And our Social Media is managed by Dominique Crespo. Houston We Have a Podcast was created and is supervised by me, Gary Jordan. And naturally, thanks once more to James Hartsfield for taking the time to come back on the present.
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